The Wolf AND The Shepherd sit down virtually with Daniel Miller and discuss whether or not Texas can actually leave the union and become a country again which has now become the Texit movement
Daniel Miller is President of the Texas Nationalist Movement and has been an outspoken advocate for Texas independence since 1996. As the head of one of the largest and most influential political organizations in Texas, Miller has extensively researched and engaged the issue of self-determination, not just for Texas, but as part of a growing global trend.
He has been featured on every major news network and been interviewed by every major newspaper in Texas and around the world. A featured guest on FoxNews, CNN, CNBC, BBC News, RT-TV and many other news outlets, Miller has been a vocal proponent of a fundamental reexamination of the relationship between all states in the Federal union.
welcome to this episode of the wolf and
the shepherd today we are
talking about texan not brexit
because last time we had brexit around
we ended up with the wolf on this show
and that was a bad thing that came out
of brexit so
no we're talking about texit today and
with us from the texas
nationalist movement we have daniel with
us who is
going to be an expert on all of this
good stuff
answer all of our questions daniel thank
you for joining us today
hey thank you guys so much for having me
now daniel can you first work just
explain
the title texas nationalist movement
because a lot of people out there
have a view on the word nationalist and
it's not always a positive
right you have that word can you explain
how that word
kind of fits into everything yeah i'll
tell you
uh you know the tnm was founded in 2005.
uh
but we were very careful
about how we created the organization
how we named
it uh the the framing of our mission
took almost
18 months to get right so uh texas
nationalist movement was a a name for
the organization that was chosen with a
good deal of thought
and back uh when when we were
considering it
there was some some handwriting over
using that word nationalist because of
the connotations from the mid 20th
century right
but one of the things that we noticed
was that
you know we had to be true to who we
were and what we were going to be doing
as an organization
and so there were a couple things that
that led us to make that
that uh that choice uh the first one was
a reference in historical literature to
mirabeau lamar who was the second
president of the republic of texas
he's he's typically known as the father
of texas education
but he became known as the father of
texas nationalism and part of that was
his firm belief that the republic of
texas should
maintain its independence not join the
union so
as president lamar did a lot of things
to foster the sense of texas
nationalism as you know being a nation
among nations
so there was that component of it where
we had this historical touchstone of
president lamar
but even more important
i think than that is the sense that
nationalism
by its textbook definition doesn't have
the uh the the negative connotations
that people have associated with it
in a in essence a nationalist or
nationalism
is is a belief in one's nation
right in its national independence and
and we actually have a video about that
on our website at tnm.me
which takes the person through the
process that we
that we went through but the the
important part of that
is understanding the word nation right
we
approached texas with a very similar
view
to those people in the early days of the
republic where we
view texas as a nation in a nate by
nation i mean people
and we knew that every successful
independence movement
over the last 70 plus years has had uh
number one
a people focus and number two an
explicit
recognition of their own nationhood
right it's actually referred to
in academic literature as internal
recognition
so we you know after after a bit of
handwringing
we said look we have to be true to who
we are people are going to label us
whatever they're going to label us
anyway right because they're opposed to
the things that we're standing for
aka texas independence so
what we have to do is we have to be true
we have to call ourselves what we are
in our sense we are the texas
nationalist movement
because we are an organization comprised
of people
that are texas nationalists who believe
in the nationhood
and the independence of texas so that's
where the name came from
now it's kind of strange because i've
traveled to a lot of
you know states and i know the shepherd
has also
and you know people
you know are proud of their state a lot
of the time in terms of its relationship
to the professional
you know sports teams they follow and
stuff but
i don't think any state has
quite such a passionate people in terms
of the
love for the states texas does i mean
people really
i mean you get all these labels of like
you know italian-american blah blah blah
but
you know living in texas being a texan
there's something about
this affinity with texas which
you know overcomes not i don't want to
say the national pride
but you know being a texan i think
means a lot more to people than people
from
you know other other states and how they
talk about their states
i've just not seen that pride in
you know people coming from other states
like somebody from texas i mean you feel
like you're part of a country
being in texas without even any
knowledge you know this texas
nationalist movement i mean
texans love texas i don't know if you
can really say that about too many
states in terms of
you know yeah well i mean come on when's
the last time you saw an
iowa shaped waffle iron i mean
let's get let's get real but you know
look at you know
the author john steinbeck wrote a book
called travels with charlie
where he loaded up the dog in in the
vehicle and
wanted to tour around america to figure
out what made america america
and and when he got to texas steinbeck
wrote that
there was a sense that he had entered a
different country uh you know and there
are some some phenomenal quotes in there
you know he talks about
texas is an obsession you know texas is
a state of mind
uh he talks about uh texas outside of
texas
a texan outside of texas is a foreigner
uh
and then he talks about texas is a
nation in every sense of the word so
you know it was it was interesting to
see steinbeck's recognition of that
not you know back in the 1800s but in in
a modern era that
people are still alive today that
understand it and i think
at a very fundamental level texans all
exude that that texan pride you know the
the fact that
uh we are in every sense a nation
you know and i think that is really at
the heart of
you know we may have our political
squabbles uh but at the end of the day
texans believe that they're texans and
you know
they may call themselves uh americans
they may call themselves whatever but
you ask a texan when they go outside of
the country where they're from
they will answer texas they will not say
the united states they will say texas
because that's just who we are
yeah and absolutely i mean there was a
time maybe about
20 years ago i used to fly back to
europe
uh pretty frequently um
and it was just amazing you know i
i'd always used to fly back well most of
the time back into like jfk
and stuff and i was glad to be back in
the states but there was something
different about when that about when i
touched down and dfw and my feet
suddenly touched texas soil again i mean
it's just a very different feeling and
it's hard to explain to people outside
of this
you know outside of texas it's certainly
hard
to for me to explain you know to my
relatives you know back in europe
and stuff but what i want you to be able
to
really kind of explain you know to our
listeners and our viewers
is a lot of people view this whole kind
of succession thing as very pie in the
sky like
how does this happen how could this
happen
and it's basically because a lot of
people don't do much research and so
they kind of
you know dismiss it as a possibility but
you know can you kind of really kind of
outline
you know the first kind of hackles up
type of
objection to the maybe the succession of
texas
just the most commonly asked questions
or
uh skepticisms people have and just kind
of deflate those so people know
up front this isn't this pie in the sky
thing that this is actually a serious
topic
yeah you know it's it's interesting
because
you know we we obviously get a lot of
questions
you can imagine some of the questions i
have
had to answer over and over again but i
think a lot of those questions come
from sort of a fundamental
misunderstanding of how the process
works
and really almost a lack of perspective
you know one of the stats that we we
talked about quite often
is the number of you know at the end of
world war ii the number of
of recognized self-governing
independent nation states uh was a
little north of
54. okay uh the in 1945 the united
nations started and
they had 51 original members right uh
but by the end of the 20th century you
had 192
recognized countries around the world
and that number grew
after the 21st century ticked over
and so you know what what for us i think
is
important is to gain some perspective i
think people around the
world have an easier time grasping
the the concept of texas independence
then sometimes our folks here do
because they have seen this happen
around the world you know those new
countries did not fall from space
the earth did not get any bigger uh they
they were people just like us who said
look we
we believe that we are the best people
to govern ourselves and not some
you know entity that is outside of us
whether it be some
you know colonizing power or some union
or whatever that is they they did what
we
are doing right now and they said look
we want to be a self-governing
independent nation state
and equal to every nation on the planet
uh in every respect okay
so it's not a foreign concept
to say texas can stand as a nation among
nations if
all those other countries that are now
on the globe
were able to do it then it's obviously
something that's within our grasp
because those people are no better than
we are right if they if it's a problem
and they can figure it out then we can
figure it out too
um but the the other part of that is
beyond perspective
is you know these seemingly intractable
problems that people throw up you know
like what are we going to do you know
how are
we going to survive without all the
federal money
you know and and that that floats into
questions like social security
medicaid medicare you know these current
federal programs
national defense i mean that feeds into
a lot of it but
that's ultimately a misconception right
because
what we know as a fact
is that texans are overpaying into the
union
somewhere between 103 to 160 billion
dollars
every single solitary year that that is
money that is coming out of our pockets
right along with all the other money
that goes to the federal government it
goes right into the federal coffers
the federal government takes a scam and
then they pay that money back out and
programs or services or whatever
okay so you know the way that i equate
this and the way that i like people to
visualize is
imagine for a moment that you go to your
doctor
and your doctor draws all the blood out
of your body
he takes it he spills about 40 of it on
the floor
and then he retransfuses the remaining
blood back in your body and he says
there you wouldn't be alive without me
right
that is the the monetary relationship
with the federal government so when you
understand that every dollar that flows
into texas from the federal government
first came out of my pocket came out of
your pockets
then you know but after taking a little
bit of a haircut comes back now all of a
sudden you realize
that when you start thinking about these
programs like social security or
medicare or medicaid or
any you know national defense all of
those things
that people talk about federal money
coming into texas
um if we kept our money here at home we
could
not only fund those programs but have a
surplus enough to eliminate things like
property tax
so you know that so when you're
looking at those issues where it's about
money that's an important thing to
understand and then
finally there are a lot of these
questions that we get
a lot of times about post-texas policy
like how is our national defense going
to work what are we going to
use for money things of that nature and
there are definite
answers to though to every single one of
those
uh questions that people throw up but
ultimately
it's not our place to answer those
questions
right now as far as what the final thing
is going to be
simply because that the important part
of self-government is for the first time
in our lives
we actually get to decide that right
up until the point of texas independence
those decisions are all being made by
two and a half million unelected
bureaucrats in washington d.c
so you know we're going to be able to do
that and we obviously there are
obviously policies in place
that exist either through existing
federal statute that would dictate our
relationship with the federal government
or international covenants and
conventions that deal with
you know basically treaties that nations
have with one another related to trade
and fishing
and air traffic control and all of those
sorts of things
but i think you know all of that almost
takes away
the most important part of reclaiming
our right of self-government
and that is that we actually get to make
those decisions for ourselves for once
yeah i think um well for me one of the
annoying things
is when i see this calaxi you know
california succeeded from the union and
you know there was a big push maybe the
last 12 months before
you know the last election that donald
trump won again
that you know they were gonna send out
these polls
and see if you know california could
succeed and
one of this dumbest thing was that
um california was stating that hey we've
got
you know we were independent country we
have maybe the 12th in the world gdp
and it was like yeah but you're broke
you've been broke for
38 years if you weren't getting federal
money
you'd be like venezuela you know pretty
much within a weekend the thing is with
texas i mean
you know i mean god bless the guys who
wrote our constitution
in texas you know we don't go into that
we balance the books we don't need
federal money and what you said i mean i
think the
average of the last six or seven years
was a 146
billion dollars we overpaid into the
government
which we didn't get back yeah i mean
the annual average is such and this is
the way i like to equate especially for
where i'm at down here
on the coast uh and people understand
this
uh quite well the the it is the negative
economic impact it's like having
hurricane harvey right one of the most
devastating storm slash hurricanes to
hit taxes in a very long
time it's like having hurricane harvey
hit every nine months
that's how much the overpayment is like
and i mean
you know i i challenge people all the
time you know and we can talk about some
more of the stats and some of the
grievances
but i challenge people all the time to
think about if that money
stayed here in texas right okay so we're
just we're going to say that instead
instead of sending it to washington dc
we're going to keep it right here
well first and foremost what would that
change
in public policy no more would our
legislature
be meeting every other year for 140 days
beating each other over the head trying
to figure out how they're going to fund
things because we would we would be
flush with cash
but more importantly how would that
change our lives
like individually how would it change
your family how would it change
my family to not have that money
siphoned off into washington dc
to be frittered away in other states or
you know i mean just
completely wasted because everyone knows
that the federal government is not the
most efficient in the world
so you know what what is what does that
change in our lives look like
if we're not being stolen from every
time
our paychecks hit with that
there are a couple of them independent
studies which said you know
texas did actually succeed that we could
almost become like
las vegas and then eliminate personal
income tax
well we don't have personal income you
know we we currently don't have personal
income tax
well i mean as in terms of paying taxes
oh taxes
paid you know the irs that that could
almost be eliminated in terms of
you know the cost of us doing business
with other states
and actually taking part in some of the
trade programs which
obviously has been part of the united
states were in
the amount of money we would actually
make we could
completely eliminate that taxation upon
personal income
oh yeah i mean it could definitely go
away but i'll i'll even i'll even throw
you this one because this is one that
people don't talk about very much
um and it is pretty dry so you'll have
to bear with me
um but there was a study that was
conducted
uh by george mason university actually
there were two different studies but i
don't recall the first one
but they came out with essentially the
same results and and
what they were doing was they were
studying an effect of what they called
federal regulatory accumulation right
it's
basically studying the fact that the
federal government has never met a
regulation that they don't like
so they regulate something related to
the economy
and then rather than repealing that
regulation or tweaking that regulation
they just
lay another one on top of it and then
they lay another on top of it and it
goes on and on so
they rolled this study back to i believe
1949 which is when we started to see the
real growth of the federal super state
and what they found was absolutely
stunning they by the time the study was
published the median average household
income or the median household income is
about 52 000 a little bit north of 52
000 a year and what they said that
in the absence of this federal
regulatory accumulation
the median household income would have
been about 330
000 a year so the the headline from that
in the take away is that with these
federal regulations the federal
government is essentially
siphoning 75 to 85 percent
of your take-home pay that's before they
even start taxing it right that's just
through
all of the regulations that compress gdp
now you know what you do the flip side
of that and go okay well in the absence
of those
federal regulations that have been
painted over one right after the other
what does that mean for us well that
means that anyone who can get out from
the umbrella of those
in in not only you know maintain their
current economic status that means
about a 600 percent pay increase for
everyone
well you take the the average
overpayment the 103 to 160 billion
dollars a year you remove the federal
regulatory accumulation and you look at
how
that increases the circulation well now
all of a sudden
we're not talking about texas being the
ninth or tenth largest economy in the
world we're talking about texas being
about the fourth or fifth largest
economy in the world
and we're talking about the ability
because of all of that money now flowing
through the system to eliminate
any type of income tax frankly we can
very like well
i mean just with the surplus we could
get rid of property tax 100
and just basically continue at the same
rate of consumption tax that we're
currently at
so you know we're talking about a major
improvement in the standard of life
or in the standard of living not just
for you know not just for the
middle class and for the wealthy but
more importantly for the working poor
and those below the poverty line
because that study showed that the
impact first off texas was
disproportionately affected
by federal overregulation but more
importantly
the people that were the most affected
were the working poor
and those below the poverty line because
those you know those effects are the
effects of the regulations were
regressive
they had a tendency to drive prices up
for the goods and services
most used by those that are the working
poor and below the poverty line
but it also increased the barrier to
entry for starting new businesses for
entrepreneurship
which is traditionally the bridge
between poverty and prosperity
so you know when we can show empirically
with absolutely no question whatsoever
there is no debate on this
issue when we can show that the federal
government
is harming us not just economically
but across all these spectrum but but
primarily economically
and we can show that it affects all
texans equally whether you're wealthy or
where you're absolutely poor
and texan becomes a way that we can
alleviate that and bring
prosperity to everyone in texas then you
know we have to have this conversation
yeah now one of the um
i think big fears people in texas and
i'm even talking about some native
texans not just newcomers
to the state of the last couple of
decades have
is basically the infrastructure they
hear these horror stories about
oh yeah you won't be part of the
national grid you know the water system
agriculture tech and then it's like
spend five minutes on the internet i
mean i think we have two electrical
grids of our own
you know we've got the best fresh water
system i think we're in the top two or
three in the entire nation for fresh
water
you know outside of silicon valley we've
got you know the best tech
mines you know in the country here and
agriculturally
i mean a game there's almost nothing we
can't grow here we are self-sustaining
but again people have these horror
stories about
how will texas survive we disconnect
away
from the rest of the united states and
you know they suddenly put these tariffs
on us that these goods cost
so much you know but we export far more
of what we do
you know than we actually bring in then
we look at california again
they have to buy water they have to buy
fresh water
you know they can go they can get a
blackout they can have half
of you know california having no power
you know that that's not going to happen
in texas but people
it's not through necessarily willful
ignorance they just hear these sound
bites of how
we need to be reliant upon the federal
government for certain things and they
don't realize
just how good the infrastructure here is
in texas
across the board yeah we're world class
i mean the the fact of the matter is is
that we
we are a self-governing nation in every
in in almost every sense of the word
except for the fact that we don't have
the right to govern ourselves
as part of this union you know and and i
think that
a lot of of what of what what you're
describing
is really part and parcel of
fear-mongering i mean there's there's a
tremendous amount of that the opposition
and and make no mistake about it the
opposition to
this has been there for many many years
i mean
from the moment we were conceived in
2005
uh we hit them and and what it is it's a
political establishment
that loves to have their hands in our
pockets who loves to have
all of you know basically to control us
uh and and every you know our economic
system our politics uh you know the the
cultural engineers that are out there
uh you know they it is a well-entrenched
political establishment that we are
battling against because they
don't want to see the people take the
power into their own hands to reclaim
their
right of self-government and the fact of
the matter is is when you
look at all of that fear-mongering i
mean you you literally just
did it you dispelled the fear-mongering
with facts you know we're attack you
know here we are in texas there are
three electrical grids in in the united
states there's the east enter the
eastern interconnect the western
interconnect
in texas right so we have our own power
grid now
is that a is that a necessity for
independence and self-government
absolutely not you know we are the
number one
exporter of manufactured goods among all
the states of the united states the port
of laredo has surpassed
the port of los angeles in trade and
it's an inland port i mean i think
that's important for people to
understand
uh you know so is that necessary for us
to be independent absolutely not
across every measure when you begin to
measure taxes up against
other self-governing nations around the
world you know we're we're coming out in
the top 10 lists
over and over and over across almost
every measure
that matters and so
all of this idea all of these ideas and
discussion about texas wouldn't be able
to make it
i mean i i don't know any
self-respecting texan that would really
buy into that
yeah and the funny thing is i mean i
think you take
many died in the world texans they
wouldn't even care you know they'd
rather scrimp it
and be texan than you know have to
really
you know fight fight with the dogs for
stuff but i think
you know outside of texas
you know a lot of states are very
dependent
on a number of other states to actually
keep living the way they
live and i think the thing is here in
texas we're really not
like that if you know something happened
tomorrow and we could not trade with
another state we could not
trade with another country i don't think
for the most part any texans would
notice and i don't think there are any
other states which
could really you know kind of say that i
mean
we we are without actually succeeding
our own nation but we're still
you know having to pay this money
federally but
as much as it should probably hurt us
every single year which goes past
you know we keep smashing through these
barriers and making more and more money
in tech and agriculture and everything
else to the point where
it i think it's i can't remember the
guy's name but he said that
you know texas pretty much if you took
texas away from the united states
the gdp would fall down so much to the
point where the national
debt would increase where you know our
borrowing rates in china and everywhere
else
would get to the point it would have a
stranglehold on the fed
and you know texas we don't need
the united states united states needs
texas
i mean that that's been proven
economically i mean it's been proven in
terms of
you look at you know across the military
they need texas
in terms of you know strategic point you
need texas in terms of agriculture in
terms of a lot of things
the united states needs texas and
sometimes i feel like
i i don't know i kind of get a little
bit angry in the way we're treated at
times
you know and the the attitudes towards
texas
because you know it's just well we don't
need you type thing
but again i mean we're all you know
that's the thing in texas we are
patriots we do love our country we do
love the united states
but you know many of us we love texas
more
but you know i i kind of wonder
what point where we're going to be
pushed
to where this actually becomes a real
thing and we
put this in front of people and say look
you know we really don't have to put up
with this i mean now i think on your
website you've got
just over 400 000 people who have you
know registered
and the population of texas is just
under 30 million
now people might say all right you know
that's not a high proportion of
you know representation of texas but it
actually is given people who have gone
to your website and actually registered
on there
now have you done much polling you know
across the state in terms of
people you know percentage wise good
numbers who actually do
support texas leaving you know the
united states
yeah absolutely look and i'll get to
that but your compadre is chomping at
the bit over there i
i know he's getting ready to either ask
me a great question or
uh
no it it it's kind of ironic because i i
was kind of floating towards that
same kind of question you know what what
is the hurdle
yeah yeah wait we're all sitting here
all three of us were texans
and i'm i'm sitting here listening to
this and i'm saying to myself
you know hey this all sounds great but
what is the hurdle
yeah where where are the
the polling numbers so to speak right
and
and what's what's that next hurdle to
get this
rolling forward
you know and as the texas nationals
movement kind of
done their research there to try to
figure out you know
but where do we where do we go from here
right
yeah look i can i can knock both of
these questions out
in one answer but you got to get you got
to give me a little
little space to expand it as you ha as
you've noticed
there are typically no simple answers
where this is concerned but here's what
it boils down to
um
there's uh you know the it's really
about process
okay so let me start with the process
and then i'm gonna i'm gonna take the
the the question
about you know the number of supporters
versus
kind of the population and we'll we'll
address that
okay so the the process is is
pretty straightforward if texas was a
state that had
citizen initiative this would already be
on the ballot
right but what it takes for us
article 1 section 2 of the texas
constitution is abundantly clear
it says all political powers inherent in
the people and it says that the people
have at all times the inalienable right
to alter reform or abolish their form of
government in such manner as they may
think expedient right so
what this means is this this question
has to be put to the people of texas
so the the the first step in this
process
is that is we have to get this on a
ballot
for the people of texas to vote on now
the challenge with that is
is that there is no statute that allows
us to do that
there's no citizen initiative where as
citizens we can get
signatures and force something on the
ballot so what we have to rely on is we
have to rely on a legislative process we
have to have the legislature
place a statute on the books that will
give us this vote
okay now that that part of it is
happening right now after working on
legislative issues since 2009 where
we implored these guys we rallied up we
did all the things
necessary to try to get somebody to at
least
introduce the legislation this session
last month uh state representative kyle
biederman from down in the hill country
filed hb 1359 which will do that
it's called the texas independence
referendum act and it says look let's
put the question
to the people of texas over whether or
not they want to
stay or go so very similar to
the uk referendum and brexit to the
scottish independence referendum in 2014
all the way back to the 48 or so
independence referenda all the way back
to 1900
this is the question that if this
legislation passes will be put to the
people of texas
it is a very black and white issue right
it's like either you support the right
of the people
to vote on this or you do not because
the
the issue that's not up for discussion
right now is text it
the issue related to this legislation is
whether or not an elected official
believes that the people are smart
enough
and competent enough to make an
appropriate to make their own decision
on this issue i think it's notable
that all of the politicians that are
coming out swinging against this
are coming out swinging at the issue of
texas they say texas
fringe they say it is extreme they say
it won't happen they you know there are
all these project fear assertions
and then they turn around and they say
uh but i don't want the people to be
able to vote on it well if it is so
fringe
if it is so extreme if it will never
happen then
why not let why not put it on a ballot
and let the people vote for it i mean
literally the only thing it costs is the
ink on the paper if it's a paper ballot
or the electricity to light the pixels
on the screen for people to to make
their choice that's all it costs
because the vote in and of itself is not
to extract us it's to begin the process
of developing a transitional plan
so so that that's the process question
right and so to
to your question about is there enough
support out there
in 2005 when we started support for
independence was pulling in single
digits okay
just because most people weren't on
board didn't mean it wasn't the right
thing to do
so we had to go out and we had to set
about educating people on this issue
the number one the number one
issue that is holding this
back has been the belief in the people
that it can happen not that it should
happen right we were blowing those polls
out by 2009
almost half of republicans about 45 of
independents
and uh 15 of democrats were saying that
texas would be better off as an
independent nation
fast forward to 2014 where you had
over half of republicans right at half
of independence and 35 percent of
democrats
say that texas should become an
independent nation we've done
tons of third party polling you had in a
recent poll
i think 53 54 maybe even higher
uh in a victory insights poll of
republicans say that
they would absolutely vote for texas to
leave the union
uh if joe biden takes office so there's
tons of polling both but third parties
and uh you know internally that we do
that that indicates that if this thing
goes to the ballot we win
uh and and so what i tell people is look
we wouldn't be pushing so hard
for the referendum if we didn't think
that we were going to win it
consistently internal polls show our
internal polls show
that we poll anywhere from 8 to 12
percentage points
ahead of those people who want to leave
or who want to stay excuse me
so the the fact of the matter is is
we're pushing hard we think we'll
we'll slam dunk it by a 10 to 15 point
margin
because we can make our case and and we
can
we can talk about that case here in a
minute but i really want to address this
issue about
the number of supporters listed on our
website versus the population of texas
literally no other organization is
measured by that metric none uh
if you look at our declared supporters
as a ratio of the the populous of texas
and the voters
and you can compare us to other major
organizations like the national
organization of women or the naacp
or the nra we are outside of the two
major political parties here in texas we
are the largest
political advocacy organization here
we're the second largest independence
movement in the western hemisphere and
one of the largest in the entire world
if if we were and literally if we were a
political party
we would be a major third party here in
texas
now we're not and we have no intention
of doing that
but the fact of the matter is is that
when it comes to the size of our
organization
the opposition loves to look at that
number right we put it up there on
purpose that wasn't an accident
we needed texan we needed to overcome
the greatest weapon
that the opposition has had and i
alluded to it a moment ago
it's when the politicians talk about
this idea being extreme
when they talk about that it's fringe
[Music]
the greatest weapon that they have in
their arsenal that has kept this back
is us it's the people themselves
so what we have done our strategy has
been to engage in this like
retail politics like any other political
advocacy organization
and to remind texans that feel this way
that they are not alone
we literally instruct our volunteers
to at this moment in time do not look to
convince anyone
that's not the battle for today the the
ba that is the battle for when it's time
to go to the polls and vote on taxes the
work that we have to do right now
is connect with texans who are already
convinced
uh there are there are enough of us in
texas right now
that believe that not only texas would
be better off as an independent nation
but that we should make that choice
that we can not only get a referendum on
independence but we could win that
referendum
are are we a little bit concerned about
the
influx of what i'd love to call
foreigners
right you know that you know california
right californians
are running over here to texas new
yorkers are running here to texas
every everybody's jumping in and saying
you know hey
not only do i want to move to texas i
want to go ahead and tell all my friends
to move to texas
and then they show up here now you put
something on the ballot
and you say hey we're going to be
independent and these guys that
come over from different states are
saying well and now hang on a second
i thought i was just moving to a
different state because i've lived in
four or five different states before
i don't want to move countries i i just
want to live in the us
but you know texas is so much better and
of course we all know that
right but now all of a sudden you put
this
ballot initiative out there and all
these people do have the right to vote
is that a concern well i think it is a
concern but but look i'll answer that
from number one from our experience
and the experience well let's take
experience out of it i'll answer it from
that but i'll also give you hard data
on how things really are there is a
concern out there
about folks that are moving in to texas
from these other states
where they have had these failed
economic policies and failed social
policies and
the politics is about you know teetering
on
uh you know karl marx karl marx wet
dream
uh but but the the bottom line is our
experience has been that
so many of those people that are coming
to texas right now
are coming to texas because it's texas
and because they are essentially
political cultural or economic refugees
from the state in which they live right
so those failed policies
are driving out people who are
in in a large sense texans in spirit
right they have an independent spirit
they believe that the government that
governs best governs least
uh they don't want the government with
their hand jammed down their pockets
you know all of those sorts of things so
those people are
are fleeing those places as essentially
refugees
and what we're hearing from uh you know
so many of those people is
many of them are coming here
specifically because they expect texas
to leave the union
and they want to get here before they
need to apply for a visa to get here
so you know that that's a that's a
wonderful scenario to be in and it's
it's anecdotal
but let's talk about real on the ground
politics
uh and you don't even have to take my
word for it
uh governor greg abbott was speaking at
an event with the texas public policy
foundation a couple of weeks ago
and he talked about he he actually told
this story so if anyone wants to fact
check me
go look and see what the governor said
about it oh now
before you go any farther nobody fact
checks our podcast
i'm used to it right yeah yeah we made a
comment
that dwarves make up 72 percent of the
population and nobody questioned it
yeah uh okay but i'm still putting the
challenge out there anyway
okay someone will i i get fact checked
more than anyone i think
now can i interrupt you real quick when
i mentioned that
you know your website had over 400
000 registered users and there's just
under 30 million in texas
that is actually quite a high percentage
of people
who identify with a movement when it's
online
um because it was just like when you
know donald trump
got elected the first time around you
know
that sleeper movement you can never
allow for that sleeper movement so
whenever you see like say you know
you've got over 400
000 supporters on your website the
numbers are going to be
astronomically higher than what it is
there
and i think like i said there needs to
be either
a catalyst some kind of timber box which
is really going to make
people take this seriously and i don't
know economically
you know how this government which we
have now
is going to be treating things across
this next six
12 18 months two years three years
whatever but
we do know the texans you can only push
them so
far and there's some people who are very
passive who might not necessarily
identify
you know with the texas movement whoever
you push them
these good old boys in west texas and
east texas and here they're and
everywhere
you know they may not be nailing their
colors to the mast at the moment because
there's no need to but you push them
into a corner
you make things difficult for them you
start hitting their paycheck you start
affecting their family
and stuff these people are going to come
out and really
you know bring more numbers to this
movement at the moment
you've just got the people who that they
just give an opinion because none of us
are in a boat at the moment in texas
where anybody's pushing us to have
to really give an opinion on things you
know and that's why i think that number
that 400
000 is actually pretty freaking
impressive given
we're not in a precious situation to
actually give an opinion on it
sure oh look you know there the two two
points
uh on that you know if you look and see
how many
like if you want a a textbook definition
by statute of how many members
are there are in the republican party of
texas which is the dominant political
party
uh that number by statute definition
is about 2.1 million okay so that's
if you want to know how many republican
actual republicans there are
that's about 2.1 million so where did
the
where did the where did the rest of
those votes come from right so it's not
who has declared their support it's at
the end of the day
how many people are going to go vote for
this on the ballot and and there is a
correlation between the two
right you can show that but what we've
always said is
is that every discussion about this is
just a thought exercise
until it gets on a ballot and then it
becomes real
and just like you saw the silent brexit
voters
bring i mean that they're the ones who
swung the uk
out of the eu right it wasn't the you
know
everyone had a role to play but you kept
leave.eu i mean they they did what they
do
but ultimately what did it were those
people
that were sort of harboring this feeling
you know
harboring that feeling that the you know
the only flag on the polls the
government building should be the union
jack
those people are the only those people
are the ones that had never said
anything to anyone
had never attended a meeting had never
attended a rally had never joined
anything
but he waited for the opportunity where
their voice would matter where their
vote
would count and that's where we are
right now you know when when we're out
here
doing this work we're connecting with
the people that are convinced
we're connecting with people that have
been waiting for this their entire lives
people who may have just swung over to
it because
excuse me because of external
circumstances
you know what whatever whatever their
impetus was
but there will always be a chunk of
people here in texas
that have been feeling this way their
entire lives and
all they wanted is the opportunity to
cast a vote so
you want to talk about the catalyst i
mean our goal our our
milestone our first milestone on this
road
was to get legislation filed that's been
done
now the horse is out of the barn right
whether the legislature passes it this
session
or stands in the way it will have
repercussions for the for the
until you know probably for the next
hundred years of texas politics
and the people of texas who have had an
opportunity
to to you know potentially vote on this
thing are not going to give up and go
away
this issue will define politics more
than
than any other policy issue that texas
government has tackled
uh and it will and look at this not
hyperbole
what's happening in the next few weeks
will determine the course of texas
politics for the next 100 years
now can i ask you a question and i know
this is
again one of the most common questions
which
comes up when we talk about succession
of the state
and i'm having to go from a memory here
but i'm a genius i'm sure i can remember
um it was that can estate
legally concede and i think it was 1869.
thank and the supreme court
um hold on one second they wrote that
unilateral succession was
unconstitutional
unless revolutionary consent of the
states could lead
what was it to a successful succession
now what does that
that's the thing when most people look
up about
whether a state can succeed can you
answer that because i know
that in itself that ruling is not
absolute i mean that's it's
garbage yeah yeah okay
so here you go gentlemen and i you and i
use that that term in the most endearing
sense
i am going to take this opportunity on
your podcast to put a stake
through the heart of texas versus white
uh because it is absolutely and utterly
ridiculous
and here's what i'm going to tell you
first off
99.9999
of the people who throw that out as an
excuse have
never read the case don't know any facts
about the case
and have no knowledge of anything that
happened in the supreme court after that
right
they they heard it from some uh you know
third rate adjunct professor at bug
tussle community college who got
tinged by a local media outlet to chime
in on this
and and it's so much garbage okay so
let me just start off by laying the
groundwork before i get to texas versus
white
the united states constitution is
absolutely silent
on the issue of a state leaving the
union and some people will say
well because well that means that the
constitution doesn't allow you to do it
it's like no no
you don't understand how this works the
united states constitution is a limiting
document on the federal government
literally in article 10 is a list of
items of things that these states cannot
do
they you know the list states cannot
coin money
right i mean there's an entire list
leaving
is not on that list okay so what the
operative
section that we got to worry about now
is the 10th amendment right which says
that any powers not given to the federal
government are reserved to the people
in the states okay so that means it's a
state decision
and our constitution is abundant article
one section two that i quoted earlier
it's a p it's up to the people of texas
to determine our destiny right so
you can take this idea that it's
unconstitutional and throw it in the
garbage
there is no federal law prohibiting it
there is no provision of the
constitution prohibiting it
so they fall back on this ridiculous
notion that the supreme court in texas
versus white
said that states can't leave so
it is time for my takedown of chief
justice
salmon p chase
this the the case at the heart of texas
versus white was a
an issue over bonds that were issued by
the confederate government of texas
during the civil war okay and there's a
whole bit of
interesting nuance there because it
actually came
those bonds were originally from the
part of texas that was sold off to the
united states
right remember when we had that nice
little panhandle shape and we actually
had our own ski resorts
okay um or could have had our own ski
well now
now hang on yeah that was when colorado
was up there we don't want to accept
colorado
you know it it reached up there so
so now we we don't accept them we don't
accept that
we don't want to drive the waffle iron
guys out of business right we don't want
them to have to go back to the factory
and recut their waffle iron molds
so the map stays as it is okay so
so that's what it was about it was about
these bonds and whether or not
the the bonds should have been cashed
now interestingly enough sam and p
chase before he was chief justice of the
supreme court
was the secretary of treasury under
lincoln
and he would have been the guy who would
have had to sign off on the receipt of
bonds to pay
out the money okay so first off salmon p
chase should have never been
sitting in that suit because because
it was something that happened under his
tenure as secretary of the treasury okay
but let's go beyond that let's look at
what chase said
in his ruling now you you mentioned some
parts of it where
you know consent of the states or by
revolution but you have to look at what
chase says
first off he says that the union
is an indestructible union comprised of
indestructible states okay so
first question if it is if both the
union and the states are indestructible
someone has got to explain west virginia
to me
because the last i heard if we're
indestructible then you can't go chip
off a piece
right so you know because that's really
what we're talking about
so explain west virginia but but that's
not the important part that's the funny
part
the the real interesting part was when
you start
following chase's logic how he got to
that conclusion
so gentlemen buckle your seat belts for
this
most interesting mental gymnastic
exercise from sam and p
chase now we were all taught in school
that the the colonies became states
right they when they declared their
independence they declared themselves
states equal to the status of the state
of great britain
right that is straight from the
declaration of independence
so they were 13 self-governing
independent nation states that were
united in their opposition to king
george
so they then drafted a document called
the articles of confederation
which they began to govern themselves
under and then we all know the story
that they thought the articles wasn't
working for them you know there were
some some provisions so what they did
was
they sent these delegates off to a
convention to
amend the articles of confederation to
try to make it work out and instead what
happened was
the convention chucked the articles of
confederation and came up with a
completely brand new document
called what which was eventually the us
united states constitution
right and then that constitution had to
be sent to the states to be ratified so
the articles of confederation were no
more
and the united states constitution
became the operative so
sam and p chase though made the argument
that the united states constitution was
not a new document in and of itself but
was
merely an amendment to the articles of
confederation
so his assertion was is that the
articles of confederation
were still in effect at the time of the
civil war
and the constitution was an amen an
amending document to it now
any school kid can tell you that that's
garbage and it was so
out there as a legal theory at the time
people raised their eyebrows and we'll
talk about that here in a minute
but what's interesting about his theory
is
that he said okay because it's an
amending instrument to the articles of
confederation
the articles of confederation refer to
the union as a perpetual union
and so therefore in the preamble to the
constitution when it says to form a more
perfect union
it is to form a more perfect perpetual
union i guess
perpetual version 2.0 maybe is what he
was going after
so you know how do you make something
perpetual even more perfect right you
can't make it more perpetual
so what does that mean well that means
that if you can't make it more perpetual
but yet it's going to be more perfect
then it has to be less perpetual right
but that's beside the point because
interestingly enough when it comes to
that
at that argument if chase is right he
invalidated george washington's first
term as president
because by the time of george
washington's first term as president by
the time he was elected
not enough states had ratified the u.s
constitution
right there were still a couple of
holdouts that hadn't ratified it yet
so he essentially nullifies george
washington's first term as president
but more importantly he sets the stage
for something very interesting that
happens later not in texas versus white
but in a subsequent supreme court case
called jacobson v massachusetts
because remember chase's entire
assertion is predicated
upon his reading of the preamble of the
u.s constitution
right in its in the uh the preamble is
the only connecting linkage that he has
to the articles of confederation for his
argument
subsequent case called jacobson v
massachusetts
which held that the federal government
can derive
no powers from the preamble of the
constitution
so you don't have to overturn texas
versus white directly by a case about
secession because frankly it wasn't
about succession to begin with
you don't even have to deal with it at
all because you can look at it and say
it's dicta
right it's just commentary but what's
important is the
base argument that chase uses for his
assertion
was utterly destroyed by a subsequent
supreme court in jacobson v
massachusetts
when you cut that linkage off you
destroy his entire argument
but even more basic than that
texas versus white is internally
contradictory okay
when he says it's an indestructible
union of indestructible states but then
later goes on to say
excuse me later goes on to say that
there was no provision
there's no way for states to leave
except by
consent of the other states or
revolution
well which one is it is it a perpetual
indestructible union
or is there a way to leave so the fact
that he actually
caught totally contradicts himself i
mean those are flip sides
you know those are two completely
opposite positions they can't
live within the same decision
and both be right and so if they both
can't be right
then ultimately neither are right so
long story short is that people who want
to bring up texas versus white aside
from the fact that most have never
actually read it or understand it or
looked at it
the world didn't stop spinning in 1869.
you know the world kept moving our
constitution here in texas
was was written in 1876 right so post
texas versus white post-civil war and
article 1 section 1 ends with the words
that the perpetuity of the union depends
on the right of local
self-government unimpaired to all the
states
basically saying as long as we our right
of self-government our local
self-government is preserved
then we'll stay in the union otherwise
we're out of here you know the the
implied exit strategy
and then you have the reservation of the
rights in article 1 section 2.
so at the end of the day the question of
texas independence is not a judicial one
it's a political one it's only in the
hands of the people
the the the so to put an uh an end point
on texas versus white understand
that the decision the opinion rendered
by
chase and texas versus white was so
controversial
among the northern states that they were
actually proposing
they were proposing resolutions and
potential laws
to restrain the power of the supreme
court and to
essentially reinforce the existing
belief
that the supreme court cannot and should
not legislate from the bench
legislators in northern states were
outraged and everyone thought that sam
and p chase was crazy
and frankly he was because he was
utilizing that to try to
retroactively justify some of the
actions that the federal government took
towards states that left
but that's a that's a a discussion for
academics
uh that deal with history what we're
talking about is
what our rights are right now and and
what we have seen post texas versus
white
is we have seen a federal government
policy that has sent
our grandfathers our fathers our sons
and daughters overseas
to fight and potentially die for the
right of self-determination for people
all around the world you literally just
had
joe biden take to the airwaves
and condemn the government of burma or
myanmar whichever one you prefer
for overturning the results of a
fair democratically held election a vote
that essentially would have put a
people-elected government in power
so the implied the the implication when
people invoke texas versus
white is that if we do the same if we
decide we're going to vote
that somehow it will lead to civil war
ii
union harder right that somehow they're
going
to send the troops everything else but
the fact of the matter is that is not
the way the world works now it hasn't
worked that way for some time
and i think it's going to be very hard
to justify to the american people
that you know that if texans if our only
crime is going to the polls in voting
for our self-government
it's going to be very hard to justify
the federal government policy
to intervene in burma when a government
suppresses the people's right to vote
and then turn right around to do the
same thing right here in texas
yeah now um sorry that was a long one
there was actually a discovery channel
show
so i think it was close to about a year
and a half ago
and it was talking about civil war the
chances of another civil war in the
united states and
every single model from every historian
every professor they ran
they said you have to take texas out of
the equation
because the side of texas always wins
it's like it doesn't matter because like
you know you got
the landmass the advantage it has in
terms of
you know getting the electricity grid
the fresh water supply
agriculture everything else but also the
number of ex-vets the number of hunters
snipers everything else that any
simulation you do of a civil war
model in the united states of america
president
president day you have to take texas out
of the equation because
texas wins and they even went a little
bit further
they ran these models through that like
even if the other 49
states went against texas it'd be a twin
class
that texas wouldn't defeat the other 49
states so i mean
in terms of how we can hold our own
you know that's not really up for debate
but what is obviously going to occur
is that you know this is actually pushed
towards a popular vote
you know among the people of texas right
there is definitely going to be a push
back
from washington because they don't want
us to leave because like we said earlier
they needed uh they need us we don't
need them
and they realize they lose us it's going
to be a huge economic hit
um so there is going to be pushback
and you know what one thing i can say
and i've said to multiple people you
know i've got you know french relatives
living in other states is
it doesn't matter whether you agree with
the politics of you know greg abbott
um you know cruz whatever
you know they stick up for us you know
and it that i know they don't represent
everybody's feelings in texas but they
stick up for texas
and i can't tell you how many friends
i've had who they're embarrassed of
their state representatives who don't
stand up for their state
i mean one thing i will say you know
about our representatives in
texas they prove they do pretty much for
the whole
stick up for us you know i i don't and
that's definitely not paramount
among the rest of the states in the
union i mean they they really kind of
pander to their own positions in terms
of wanting to be
re-elected who they're pandering to you
know in the higher people in their party
you know to the government but our texas
representatives have done a pretty good
job
representing us and the people in texas
you know against a lot of the criticisms
of you need to do this
you need to do that we stand pretty firm
against the federal government compared
to the majority of states i think
yeah but but all ultimately the the
question is why should we have to do
that all the time
i mean we're we are texas is constantly
having to do battle with the federal
government over encroachment
right and i think it really sort of
boils down to these these tensions
between the states
between one another in the federal
system and you know there are
on the lips of many people a prediction
of civil war but what we have always
said
when people start pitching texas leaving
the union or any state leaving the union
for that matter as
you know the start of a second civil war
we we point to
recent history to show us that rather
than
causing a civil war it will prove it's
going to ultimately prevent one
uh you know there was the case of of
sudan where they had a civil war that
raged for 30 years
millions dead in that civil war and
ultimately the solution to that which
brought peace
was to separate and to be north sudan
and south sudan
so you know if we're experiencing if the
system the federal system is
so broken that we're experiencing so
much tension that people are even having
conversations about a civil war
or implying that if a state were to
leave that military force would be used
it's it's definitely past time to have
this conversation we need to be having
the conversation about
separating ourselves now uh rather than
later
because there might not be a later uh uh
look somebody else he's itching again
yeah i
know i mentioned you know i i'm the only
one that's
hitting the the mute button i'm i'm
sitting here you know
trying to navigate all this stuff but
so one of the questions i've got for you
is
a lot of times if you look back in the
history of the united states right
and you have the different purchases
you have texas coming in you know they
were
a country before they came into the
union he had
all these different aspects of how
territories became part of the united
states
is there a possibility or in your
organization that you've looked at
that said hey let's back up
in and kind of reverse engineer this and
be like puerto rico and say you know
what we don't want to be a
state anymore we're gonna go to a
territory
we're gonna let go of statehood and just
go to
territory while we figure out all this
stuff
has that ever been mentioned yeah i mean
you know there's there's the the free
association status i mean there's some
things of that nature but look it's
the only thing that is independence is
actual independence
right um but you know we go back down to
that process
issue and sort of where the the
misconception is for someone some people
think
that if we go to the polls and vote for
independence that you know independence
day plus one minute suddenly
it happens you know when all of a sudden
you know the garbage trucks don't run
and
you know we're fighting every you know
we're fighting each other and loincloths
and the thunderdome
and you know all of this craziness and
that's just not the way that it works
right
we're gonna find male 1 voting though
right
[Laughter]
it'll it'll be up to us right uh but
but you know the the fact of the matter
is the process itself is
we the people express their will and
then
it's up to us to carry out that will
right we have
elected officials for a reason and
constitutionally those guys
make the laws they they work out the
transition plan and
you know obviously with all the input
from everyone but
we have a system in place right it's not
like the system evaporates after
an affirmative so you know we've got
transitional issues we've got to deal
with
but everything stays the same until it
changes and and how it begins to change
is all going to be predicated upon the
actions that we have to take
now there are definitely some
transitional things that are going to
have to happen
we've got offices uh that are
constitutional offices that are going to
have to be expanded
uh to deal with our role as a nation
among nations for example
you know the one one example i use all
the time is secretary of state
right our secretary of state doesn't
deal with international issues
uh we would probably have to expand the
power of secretary of state's office to
deal with the international issues
uh you know and there are some others uh
you know the comptroller's role
dealing with monetary policy and and
things of that nature
yeah and and to interrupt you i mean one
of the things my
daughter's worried about is she has a
season pass to six flags
so it you know here in arlington
it is her season pass for six flags
gonna be
able to get her into any other park in
six flags
everywhere else i mean there's so many
ridiculous things like that
like you're kind of talking about but
those are those are things people
think about and and i know that's kind
of a joke and and we can laugh about it
but
i've honestly thought about some of
those things like
people with a mortgage that is fha
insured so now they have a fha mortgage
is there going to be a problem there
their bank account is
fdic insured what's what's gonna
you know take place there i know that's
so far in the future but these are
probably questions you're getting hit
with
yeah and look we've got uh you know i
got guys i wrote a book
i don't know if you guys have seen it
it's called text it why and how texas
will leave the union and and i answered
like i
you know we released the book two years
ago and what i did was i drilled down on
all those questions and then
in addition we actually have them on our
website at t m dot me
slash texit and and tons of questions
like that you know like
what about currency how are we gonna
handle banking
uh you know we answer those most people
don't realize is that
texas charters its own banks uh
so you know people think about well you
know house texas but how
are those banks going to do business
here how are texas banks going to do
business there well
most people don't realize hsbc is a
spanish bank you know i mean
there are examples of how these things
work one of the questions that we get
asked all the time
oddly and i say all the time frequently
is you know is are the you know the
longhorns of the aggies going to still
be able to play in the ncaa
and it's like yeah the ncaa has already
started the process
of of bringing in teams that are not the
united states so they're like okay what
about
the astros and major league baseball
it's like did you think toronto was
part of the united states you know i
mean these these
there are examples for all of these
things that already exist you know
social security recipients the most
asked question that we get what's going
to happen to my social security
you go to the social security
administration website and they tell you
that
expats that are drawing social security
can continue to draw social security as
long as they don't renounce their
citizenship
and the united states government doesn't
force you to renounce your citizenship
if you become an expat
so it would this solve the dallas
cowboys problem of not being able to
get into the super bowl for years i mean
you know would
would jerry jones kind of support this
and and maybe the cowboys can
finally turn around and win a super bowl
i don't know but maybe we would finally
get
the dadgum nfl team in san antonio
one thing i did want to address and um
[Music]
you know one thing i know which has been
criticism from other states is that
you know they view texas as a very
red state which isn't necessarily true
we're kind of
purpley pinky whatever but
you know they say that you know all
these
things they go against in terms of human
rights
you know are going to be distinguished
or
extinguished you know like there's going
to be you know going back to this whole
period of racism and everything else and
this has been a difficult thing for me
because
you know for for all the uh you know
hispanic representation we have in texas
you will find few people more pro texas
than hispanic texans i mean they
love texas absolutely i mean hispanics
in texas they
love texas and they know it's
you know it's the same thing you know
black people in texas you know african
americans
when they've done the polls in terms of
how they've been treated
fairly in terms of job opportunities and
everything else
texas treats minorities
better than almost every other state in
the union we don't just kind of
throw out these banners of oh yeah we're
against discrimination blah blah blah
you know our facts and figures are down
there they are now to the mast and when
we are
the least racist state in the union in
terms of a melting pot
you know i know that was supposed to be
the whole um
you know thing for the united states but
in texas here
i mean it really is i mean everybody
here doesn't know your black
hispanic asian whatever they're proud to
be texan
and you know all the white people here
we love how hispanic
black asian brothers sisters
we love you you're texans and that's one
of the biggest
you know i think people outside of texas
you know they try and criticize us and
say oh it'll be
you know if you're not a christian
you're not welcome if you're not white
you're not welcome
but that's the biggest bunch of bs ever
i mean we
freaking love you because you're hearing
your texan
well look here here's here's the bottom
line and anyone who doesn't acknowledge
the fact
that texas is the melting pot that
everyone believed america was
uh it's just they're ignorant they they
don't know us their their prejudice
against us or whatever but
but look i think it's important to
understand that this issue of texas
independence not just texas itself
you know and i say this because people
like to couch the texan issue as a
republican issue
right and what we have said since day
one is that it is a trans partisan issue
right
it's a transcendent issue and transcends
above the normal
partisan politics and a testament to
that fact
excuse me a testament to that is that
the demographics of our
organization more closely resemble the
demographics of texas as a whole
than either major political party and
and what that tells you is is that our
message resonates
regardless of your ethnic background
regardless of your socioeconomic
background
we view one another as texans okay and
in all of us within the tnm
those that are in and those that will be
in before this is all over with
they all acknowledge the fact that a
texan is a texan is the texan
regardless of any of those things that
the
the politicians the pollsters and the
pundits use to divide us
right we we won't as texans we won't be
divided by those things
uh and we can as you know what's
what's amazing about texas is the fact
that everyone who gets here
wants to adopt the the tax and mindset
they
want to adopt the dress and the speech
and and everything else and all of those
people that come here
they they bring their flavor you know i
i get the best vietnamese food in the
world right here in southeast texas
and i love it and i g and i get it from
a guy who wears a cowboy hat and has a
thicker accent than i do uh a thicker
texas accent
so you know i mean it's it's an amazing
place
that gets a bad rap from people who just
hate us because they ain't us
and i totally agree with you totally
agree with you
so uh we passed this
right uh we let's
let's just pretend right now that it
passes day one
what's it look like well
i i i can't see a scenario where they
can win
and i'll tell you why i mean the
campaign strategy is quite simple
uh for us we intend to mount
a major campaign i mean look we're
statewide right now
uh advertising i mean we're our campaign
has already started to get this across
the finish line
this legislation and then ultimately get
the referendum across the finish line
but but here's what it boils down to we
can make our case
for why we should leave and they can't
make a case why we should stay
here's the question after many years i
got sick and tired of
being asked to defend every piece of of
our
of our goal for texas independence and
so one day we decided to flip the tables
and start asking this question if texas
was a free and independent nation today
in every respect we had our own money
we had our own passports our own
embassies overseas
we we govern our affairs like any other
self-governing independent nation and
you were asked the question
should texas join the union what would
your vote be
would you vote to join
no
i mean that's a hard note for me
[Laughter]
that guess what it's a hard note from
everyone i i mean i literally
you know started asking that question
and i haven't found a person who said
absolutely yes
because because the question is what
what is your selling point right is it
the
nearly 30 trillion dollars worth of debt
or is it the fact that we're going to
immediately be crushed under 180 000
pages of federal laws rules and
regulations that if we printed them out
and stacked them up would be taller than
the san jacinto monument which by the
way is taller than the washington
monument
you know what what is that selling point
and the fact of the matter is if you
would not vote to join
then why in the world would you ever
vote to stay hey
i i joined the union and i got this
crappy t-shirt
and seventy thousand dollars in federal
debt yeah
so daniel w we're getting near the end
and we certainly appreciate you
spending this time with us but if if you
had
one minute to convince everybody in
texas
here's why you need to do this i i want
you to take
one unadulterated minute and just say
hey here's here's that one minute
snippet
right now why you need to whether you're
like me
who is lived in texas his whole life
whether you've got somebody like the
wolf who was born in texas
went overseas came back whether you're a
californian
that decided hey i want to get rid of my
tiny little house
and sell that and buy a nice place over
here in texas
no matter what it that one minute give
me
a nice one minute
commercial as far as why this is
important
why everybody needs to be focused on
this
why we need to go ahead and say
it's time for texas to lead the union
the floor is yours my friend
look the the the bottom line is is that
whether someone is is
in favor of texas or against texas or on
the bubble
about texas the fact of the matter is is
that every one of us
at a very fundamental and visceral level
understand that something is wrong
something is wrong with governance we're
being crushed under the weight
of those federal laws rules and
regulations
we understand that politics has gotten
poisonous from the federal level
pushing its way down into texas uh and
we all
i think it in a at a at a fundamental
level again
understand that a moment of decision
is really at hand for all of us as
texans
do we make a decision to have a
conversation
about governing ourselves or do we do
nothing
and allow the federal government to
continue to spin out of control
to destroy jobs to destroy livelihoods
to destroy our freedom i mean is that
really what we have it
is a decision point for us and we have
an opportunity right now
as millions of texans are coming out of
the woodwork
to support not just tax it but
ultimately supporting having this
conversation for those people who are
undecided
so my my i i would say that that
really my my passion for
right now is that we all
table the texas discussion and have
the real discussion which is as a people
should the decision be put to us
are we smart enough are we capable
enough
to have the conversation and take the
vote
or are we what the political
establishment think of us
and too stupid to make our own decision
because
i'm telling you that's what they think
about us so
i'm just going to encourage everyone to
go to our website at tnm dot me slash
texit
and get your questions answered no pitch
all the information is there
ask your question get your answers we
will guide you through the process
and uh and we'll help you make your
decision
now uh you mentioned the website
once again it just give us a little
a little more blurb i mean you got the
website but
any other ways to reach out to y'all
support
all that good stuff we we want to make
sure that we get that out there as well
yeah
yeah and look for for those that are
just beyond inquiring and are ready to
get in the game
you know ready to help us make texan
happen uh
obviously if you go to our website i'm
going to encourage you to
register your support you can do that
right on our main page at tnm.m
so tnm.me but also become a member
t m dot me slash join if you can help i
mean as i said we're on a statewide
campaign right now we've just
executed another statewide media buy for
radio ads
trying to connect with as many people as
possible but frankly the
the absolute best way that we have been
able to cut through the noise
uh through the social media censorship
which has been real for us
is for each one of us who believe in
texas
to reach out to our friends our
neighbors our co-workers and everyone
else
and plug them in to the tnm i i do it
every day out there as an ambassador for
this
and every one of our members and
supporters are encouraged to do exactly
the same
come connect with us well thank you so
much
daniel for joining us on this episode of
the wolf and shepherd
and please reach out to daniel with
any questions and this is something
that's
you know kind of passionate to us and
we're so thankful that you joined us on
this podcast
and hopefully here in maybe i don't know
not that long we're gonna have like a a
victory drink
that maybe maybe this actually you know
happens i mean i've been waiting for
this
longer than i've been waiting for i-35
to get fixed
so just stop waiting and start working
stop wait and start work well thanks
everybody for tuning in and we'll catch
you on the next episode of the wolf in
the shepherd
you
Daniel Miller is President of the Texas Nationalist Movement and has been an outspoken advocate for Texas independence since 1996. As the head of one of the largest and most influential political organizations in Texas, Miller has extensively researched and engaged the issue of self-determination, not just for Texas, but as part of a growing global trend.
He has been featured on every major news network and been interviewed by every major newspaper in Texas and around the world. A featured guest on FoxNews, CNN, CNBC, BBC News, RT-TV and many other news outlets, Miller has been a vocal proponent of a fundamental reexamination of the relationship between all states in the Federal union.