Waterboo - Interview With Jeremy Klapprodt and Nathan Hartman

welcome to this episode of the wolf and

the shepherd today

because of course the wolf is too lazy

he didn't show up

and i called him and he said well i

forgot we were supposed to record today

which is pretty typical of him

but we have in the studio with us jeremy

claprod

and nathan hartman jeremy claprott

has created a film called water boo

and we're gonna talk about this film

that's coming up jeremy nathan glad

y'all could be here

thanks so much for having us couldn't be

happier to be here yeah

absolutely now before we go any farther

we need to talk about a little history

because jeremy klaprat and

i had known each other for many many

years as as we were kids growing up

and there were two soccer teams in

keller texas there were the stingers and

the ramblers

and jeremy was a rambler and i was a

stinger

so that was a huge rivalry and most of

us weren't even

friends because you know we we didn't

like anybody on the other team and i

just wanna

i want the record to state that the

stingers were the better team

uh we can stop now oh all right all

right well that

that will that will do it for this

episode of the wolf in the shepherd

so that that was our shortest episode

yet now jeremy and i go way back and and

we had a lot of fun

uh playing soccer but jeremy why don't

you give everybody a little bit about

your

about your background yeah i was uh

born up north but grew up in texas went

to school in keller

after graduation i

went to the university of north texas

where i studied

radio television and film graduated from

north texas

in 2000 shortly after that or

immediately after that really

i started a small video production

company and

ran that for about three years

before my family sucked me back into the

the family business yeah so you know it

was kind of funny when i was

reading a little bit about your

background i went to unt

and we graduated at the same time but

you and i never ran into

each other while we were at unt and we

were there at the exact same time

but you were on the opposite side of the

campus well if you remember

i probably don't you are still a stinger

and i'm still a rambler yeah so um maybe

we just avoided each other that that's

probably true

there's probably a lot to that yeah

so so you go to film school and then you

get wrote back in the family business

and you know we all

understand how that happens but of

course film once you go to film school

you had a film company it never kind of

gets out of your blood

right you know obviously well going back

to when i was a kid i always

experimented with

you know photography and filmmaking

and you know this and that i always had

a passion for it

so that continued like i said

into into the business after graduating

was there like a movie growing up that

you know you watched that and he said

you know what

i want to go into the movie-making

business i don't think so

i just like the creative aspect of it

really

just being able to put something

together i mean it's no different than a

painter

or a musician you know i enjoy putting

something together

and being able to present it you know

right to show the work so yeah

so the correct answer to that question

was star wars

well you're probably going to be mad at

me but i'm not a big star wars

fan yeah you know nobody's perfect

except for me so i can i can tell you

the the

the film i've seen probably more than

anything else

uh you know my mom would take me down to

movies and video there and keller

every weekend and we would

rent red dawn red dawn yeah

i mean we paid for that film over and

over again

it would have been so much cheaper to

just buy your own copy yeah

yeah you're right right so

you know talking about way back in the

day do you remember perry's

oh yes yeah did you ever rent videos

from there i didn't

ah so perry's had their own little video

section in there and that's where we

rented our videos from

until movies and videos opened okay so

the beautiful part about perry's was

it was like handwritten stuff you went

up there and you said you know here's my

name they literally went into a file

folder

pulled your file out and wrote down all

your videos

so my mom would take me in there and she

would do her shopping and she'd say hey

go pick out a video and you know you can

rent that video and it was

cheap it was probably like 49 cents or

whatever

right and they had no clue what was on

the shelves

so i rented i can't tell you how many

videos but

the one that always comes to mind is

you know it's a small store right and

you pretty much see everything and there

was this new video that was sitting

there

that i thought well i haven't seen this

yet this kind of looks interesting

the name of the movie women's

penitentiary 3.

it was a full-blown porno movie

so you know i'm a kid i'm like oh well

this looks interesting and my mom's like

well what'd you write i'm like i don't

know it's some

movie about prisons and women just think

oh okay that's interesting i throw it in

the vcr

and yeah boom man i mean full blown porn

nice i'll put that in my queue later

tonight

yeah i'm pretty sure it's on netflix

right now so

so what we're really here to talk about

though is charlie

you know the subject of your documentary

that's called

water boo and so tell us about charlie

charlie charlie's an uh he was an

incredible

individual i'll i'll take a quote

from an individual i interviewed i don't

know that you can capsulate

charlie in one word one sentence one

paragraph one page

charlie has meant a lot to a lot of

people

including myself a true inspiration his

story is

is unbelievable without divulging too

much from the movie

kind of give us an overview of charlie

and

you know what took him into the war and

you know basically

what makes his story so interesting

sure charlie went to van lou high school

and after graduation you know this was

uh 1966 when he graduated

and uh of course vietnam war was going

on

and he wasn't gonna go to college and

there was a recruiter around that was

that was wrangling all these you know

all these kids

he decided he wasn't going to let her

get to him

so he decided to enlist shortly after

that he

went off to the war he joined the

marines and

in 1967 april 21st of 1967

operation union started they

were called in for backup and charlie

was dropped in

off a a helicopter there and

not too long after sustained a gunshot

wound to the head

the gentleman serving with him saw him

these are guys i interviewed and they

explained to me

when you see someone who's been hit you

can tell

if we can help this guy or if we need to

move on

they said when you when you seen charlie

you knew he was dead

the guys moved on and fought for another

six or seven days

before coming back to camp also from

what i understand they come back to camp

they don't

they don't ask you know did so and so

die or what happened to so and so

it was just understood that charlie was

dead and

it was that way for 25 years for these

guys they didn't know he was alive

charlie was uh air evacuated and

ended up surviving he had a long

recovery ahead of him

he was shot in the on the right side of

the head

which paralyzed the left side of his

body he worked hard

to get back to where he could function

talk walk and

[Music]

lived a fruitful life after that so

it's truly amazing so he was shot in the

right side of the head which paralyzed

the left side of his body what was his

rehabilitation like like how long did

that take

i really don't know nathan you you might

have more

insight on that i don't okay

so but we're talking about lengthy yeah

but we're talking about the 60s

yeah you know we're not talking about

modern day medicine here so this has got

to be a lengthy recovery first of all

it's a miracle he survived

absolutely with you know the medical

technology we had

what is that 60 years ago right so it's

a miracle he even survived but then

you're talking about a very lengthy

process of him just being able to

rehabilitate himself and all that good

stuff

so goes through rehabilitation does he

get

discharged you know basically right

after that

yeah and and also the fact that after he

had been shot

and after he was in the lake charles

uh hospital up there in great lakes it

was i want to say it was six months

afterwards was whenever they had

actually fitting for the fiberglass

ahead as far as uh shell

as far as for his uh cranium there so we

shot in the head but it

deformed his skull so what did they have

to do

they they put a piece of fiberglass in

there yeah they put the fiberglass there

and then basically

was able to reform as far as to give

them the construction of a

of a skull all right so so he goes

through all of that

and then what happens after that i mean

he finally

gets out of there he gets through the

rehab gets his skull put back in place

with

fiberglass then what at some point

he moves to texas and this is when i met

charlie

well and now before we go any farther so

he made an

excellent decision moving to texas

because

absolutely everybody should live in

texas except for people from california

they need to stay there

but yeah everyone should live in texas

except for the ones that

shouldn't exactly yeah it's that

unwritten rule we have here in texas

so so charlie moves to texas at some

point he

he joins a company a gun eye company

it's a subcontractor

who my father at the time used for

swimming pool construction

now how old is charlie round about it at

this time when he moves to texas

you know i'm guessing early 20s so he

was shot in 67 he was

17 18 years old at that time

and when i met him it was er probably

early 90s

he was basically running errands

picking up stuff here and there

he was picking up checks and at the time

dad was running

his business out of the house dad paid

bills every friday

subcontractors would stop by pick up

their checks and charlie omen comes to

the door

and dad gets to know him a little bit

and he said well charlie i i can't give

you a check and see you

till you come in here and have a beer

with me charlie was a little bit

flustered i think

he he he called his boss and said

fred klaprat won't give me my check and

he said well why not

see he said i have to go in and have a

beer with him

he said we'll go in and have a damn beer

with them absolutely what's the problem

i'm on my way right now to get a check

yeah yeah

so he came in and and i mean they were

fast friends

you know so at the time like i said it

was probably early 90s

i'm probably 14 15 that's when i first

met him

the guy is just he didn't know a

stranger for longer than 30 seconds

i mean bigger than life i mean you

wanted to talk to him you wanted to hang

out with them and

as a kid you know at 14 15

man i thought charlie was was something

else

and when i heard his story my god i

it blew my mind now when you first met

him there at 14 or 15

did you hear the story i mean when he

comes into your dad's place and

everything to collect the check and have

a beer

is that when you first heard the story

well it it i don't think it was that

exact moment but

after that moment charlie made sure

he picked up the check from my dad at

the very end of the day

that way he could have maybe more than

one beer with him

sure shoot some pool have a good old

time

right um so naturally i was around there

and

i got to know him pretty well it wasn't

too long before i considered charlie

basically a second dad and a best friend

all in one

almost like i know growing up i had two

or three

people in my life that were my close

friends and my parents

that you call uncle sure did did you

ever call him uncle charlie

i mean did was it kind of that i mean

that's that's kind of a

certain thing amongst families you know

where you have that

family friend that isn't a relative that

you call an uncle

you're basically kind of saying that

same thing right yeah very similar

i call them some other names at times

but

made sure i was far enough away right

where he couldn't smack me

yeah so you know he he comes over in

and this is just like uh that one time

right but

he was coming over repeatedly to pick up

these checks from he died so

i'm guessing over time you know you

being 14

15 you kind of keep hearing

more of the story or as paul harvey's

say the rest of the story but

you keep picking up on these things

right you know

it was pretty interesting we knew bits

and pieces

you know you never knew like the entire

story i guess

and so we never really sat down and said

you know hey start to finish

here's my story you you kind of had to

put it together like a puzzle right

correct and it you know in a situation

like that it's you don't just walk up

to charlie and or to anyone in that

situation and

and i mean i guess you can but i just

kind of got bits and pieces here and

there i never asked

you know tell me the whole story or i

knew

what he had been through and to know

what kind of man he was

after that point that's all i needed to

know

i mean true inspiration backing up to

that first meeting

with your dad right and charlie leaves

with the check

did your dad say anything to you right

after that about him

that you remember i mean i know i know

we're talking about a long

time ago right yeah i'm old max

i'm as old as you are okay you're old

too

yeah we're both old so no nathan

nathan's not as old as we are

yeah nathan's like 18.

maybe 17. looks like he shouldn't even

be drinking beer right now

47. oh nathan's really old he's older

than we are jeremy

are you really yeah 47. yeah i don't

believe you

yeah i don't either he looks younger

than both of us

that's kind of sad yeah he must live a

very easy

life yeah we've had a tough one yeah

yeah stingers

that stingers versus ramblers rivalry

took like 10 years out every game

probably at least exactly i remember

brian kalig

falling on me at a face-off and i never

forgave him for that

i like brian kaylee give him more now

[Laughter]

oh that's beautiful memory lane

let's go ahead so to answer your

question there there wasn't a specific

moment or time that i can really

remember

that i learned more about the story it

was just kind of hanging out

it's hearing this and that hearing dad

and charlie talk

and just thinking wow you know that's

incredible right

so that's the way it normally was too

because

he's the type that if you gleaned his

respect

as far as from um from your actions and

how you were

he would kind of like invite you into

the circle kind of thing

oh it was more of kind of like a trust

thing that's like correct

okay are you trying to hear some horror

stories

because you're that kind of person or do

you really

care about my story that's correct

because you know there was a lot of

times like

if you were on his bad side oh you know

but if you're on his good side you'd

also know

oh that's good you know and there's no

there's no uh

uh shady as far as no gray area right

on it no that makes total sense at some

point jeremy

you start filming this stuff yes so

as i mentioned after college i started a

video production company

i did a lot of smaller projects school

videos a few commercials

video transfers things like that but i

had all the you know all the gear

and i've always loved documentary films

and one day i said to myself i have

all this gear in front of me i love

documentary films

and i have charlie omen in front of me

get off my butt

and do something about it at that time

which was

you know that was 2002 when i started

traveling with charlie so we're talking

about

a significant amount of time after i met

him

so at that time he was actually a hot

shot

so he would he would pick up trailers

home across the country he would pick up

cars haul him across the country

you know whatever whatever he needed to

haul he would

and so i just hopped in the truck with

him

what what an experience so i'm

i'm kind of curious i i can kind of

picture a guy like that of course

obviously i never met him but

how did you approach him with hey i want

to

bust out the video camera and start

recording you

yeah it's always with you know with

documentary films

um or filmmaking it's it's always a

challenge

gaining trust from your subject

and in this situation there

was none of that because of our

relationship

it was instant gold the second i hit

record

he was all about it he was he was fine

with it

he was a fan yeah he was saying yeah

jeremy let's

let's go ahead and do this yeah there

was no hesitation

no no no anything like that that's good

i mean there might have been times here

and there where he's like hey you don't

need to be filming this

yeah but that that seems to be the good

stuff right

yeah yeah and i said oh i'm not

recording right but you know

pay no attention to the red light on the

front of the camera

yeah and uh so yeah honestly

from the get-go i didn't have that

barrier that

challenge of gaining trust

of uh just getting him to open up

to do his normal you know his normal

routine his normal thing

so and all and honestly

i i got that throughout the the process

of of capturing film not only with him

but everyone we met all of his family

all of his friends you know i showed up

with charlie

charlie basically gave them the nod hey

this guy's with me this is

this is number two son he called me

number two son oh that's cool

yeah so they instantly welcomed me

into their homes they you know when i

sat down to interview these folks

i mean it it took nothing these people

opened up to me

they you know they mean charlie means so

much to these people

they want to tell the story it was not

as difficult as it

should have been because of that yeah

well and at this point what you've known

charlie about 10

15 years when you kind of right broke

out the camera

and said hey you know i went to film

school

i want to make a film you know yeah you

you've done some

projects in the past but this was kind

of that neat you know here's the film

that i really want to make and charlie's

i of course once again i don't know the

guy but i'm almost picturing him saying

heck yeah yeah we're gonna we're gonna

do this and we're gonna make it good

right totally cool so you're going

around

you're interviewing the family you're

following charlie around or whatever

what what were some of those moments

that as you were filming all this

that you said that's kind of a crazy

moment

that yeah i i can't believe that i just

filmed that i can't believe that

somebody just said that i can't believe

that you know i just recorded that what

did that

just happen you know i know in

documentary films

every documentary filmmaker has that

what do you call like like the eureka

moment or that aha moment or yes like

the aha moment yeah

like it did did he just say that did

that just happen

i'm sure you have a few of those at

least one

oh there there was plenty to be honest

yeah i always refer to it as

is gold you know oh man i

i got gold on tape today you know i'd go

back and look at it and

just get so excited you know and help me

really help with my vision on how i want

this film

to be made and how i want it to be

portrayed

you know i traveled with charlie to

florida alabama

oregon ohio and everywhere in between

i mean i i wish i knew the miles i

traveled with him

a lot of it of those aha moments that

we're talking about were

usually in interviews you know i

interviewed

two of the gentlemen that served with

him and though

both of those interviews were absolutely

eye-opening and mind-blowing

i learned a lot about the war about

their relationship

about what kind of conditions you know

they were really dealing with over there

and these are guys that saw charlie get

hit

these are guys that saw charlie on the

ground these are guys that saw charlie

and said

he's dead these are guys that thought

charlie was dead for 25 years

those are moments where i was just like

man

you know it's hard to imagine you know

just just following him around just

just watching him do certain things you

know i've seen him do things before

uh cook or normal normal things that

we all take for granted and i've seen

him do it you know time and time again

one-handed

but when i got behind the camera i

started to

focus in and appreciate it maybe even

more he didn't ask for help for anything

i mean moments like that really really

stuck out to me

one of the fascinating parts and not to

let too much out of the film

the film opens with him going

on the one-handed dove hunt and when i

first started watching the film spoiler

alert

i've watched the film we'll get into

that here in a little bit

you're special but when i saw the film i

i saw this one-handed or one-on-one was

it one-handed or one-armed

dove hunt one-armed duff hunt yeah only

texas yeah and

i said to myself well he has both of his

arms

why is he on this one-armed dove hunt

and then i realized oh well he's

paralyzed on this one side right

and i thought i think he might shoot

better than

i do and i have both arms like i i

kind of felt a little bad because i've

been dove hunting before and then when

you see him

crack off that shotgun with one arm i'm

like

dang that's that's impressive i mean

it's really impressive how well he

shoots on that yeah i've never seen you

shoot max

but i'd put money on charlie yeah

absolutely

i've seen me shoot and i'd put money on

charlie

he's going to out shoot me and i'm i'm

not that bad with a gun

but i'm not as good as charlie and you

know

not even meeting the guy i you know when

i watch that i'm like

that's impressive so you're following

charlie around

and you know eventually

dad calls and dad says hey jeremy i need

you in the family business

and you kind of have to get away from

filmmaking and

i'm sure that kind of sucked a little

bit but yeah you know you

you got to get in the family business so

you put the camera down

and you know you have all this footage

but but

now you know in the back of your mind

this is that passion project

that you had to do but now you come do

the family business but

in the back your mind you know this is

swimming around that

you have to finish this project right

yeah absolutely

so in 2004

i was approached by my dad and oldest

brother

to join the family business and i

accepted

um which meant dissolving the video

production

business which not a big deal i was able

to still do

you know creative stuff here and there

about a year later

is when when i kind of stopped you know

gathering footage of charlie

you know got busy with with the other

business

started a family life happens right so

these tapes i had you know 20 plus hours

of footage

on these mini dv tapes that ultimately

i ended up putting in a fire safe box

and putting it on a shelf in a shelf

in the garage and it sat there until

until recently so recently being

this year correct this year happens

what made you dig him out of the box or

dig him out of the fire

safe deal right so i'll say you know

over those years you know what is that

2005 till

2021 yeah we're talking about 16 years

yeah i mean

in the back of my mind it always weighed

on me

always wait on me um some days more than

others

one i have all this footage i've already

put in all this work i need to finish it

two i want to finish this for charlie

and everybody who knows charlie

and my ultimate goal to to share it with

you know

to get as many people out there to meet

charlie

as possible through you know through the

film so it always weighed on me

this year on april 19th 2021 charlie

passed away

and at that moment i

you know really started thinking deep

about all this footage i have

you know i had put together a couple

trailers

some teaser videos back in the day and

my initial thought was you know i want

to i want to dig those up at least

and get those out to the people that

knew charlie because i think they would

really enjoy it

and so i i did that and it really

really got a great response i mean

people loved it

you know i started getting comments like

you have to finish this

you you know you have to finish it and

and i knew i did

but but it definitely gave me motivation

to to start the

process of continuing picking this

project

back up and continuing and i i see

nathan sitting here like nodding his

head

like i'm guessing nathan you were one of

the ones that

probably saw some of this teaser footage

right yeah i sure did

yeah i mean when jeremy showed you this

footage

like what was your thoughts on that uh

let me just say as far as

from whenever i seen the the teasers

there had always been

like there can be a movie as far as

there was talks about maybe a movie

sometime

and it was always the i know because

i actually didn't even know that it was

jeremy that

had done the filming of it and

then at the funeral as whenever jeremy

actually mentioned

he's like hey would you mind if i done

some filming

and and i'm thinking no problem by all

means

so when he started filming and then next

thing you know

you know we we said they like once

because that took place up in ohio

and then when uh

he he contacted me as far as you know

after the funeral service had taken

place

and jeremy said hey can we get together

as far as to go over you know pictures

and everything like that when i told him

like beforehand what i did is i actually

had the uh

the helmet and when i had mentioned that

to him he was

and next thing you know he showed up

there at the uh

at the funeral service and right next to

where the sign in uh was i had

the helmet uh actually in a glass case

right next to the sign and that way

you knew why you were there so to

to see him come forth now with the movie

um it was it was so

heartwarming it was just like wow it

really

gave you goosebumps you know and then to

see everything that he had done

it was just like wow thank you and and

of course at

this time you didn't even know about the

prior footage right no i didn't

and and so this is just a huge surprise

to you yes

yeah absolutely so you go to the funeral

you now are showing some of the family

this teaser footage so to speak right

you know you

put together like a trailer or a teaser

whatever you want to call it

what minute minute and a half right you

know some kind of clip like that

and they're sitting there saying all

right what are you waiting for

you should have had this done yesterday

right basically

right you know it's funny i i have

zero patience and it's just funny you

know after

20 years when i decided this is going to

happen

this absolutely consumed me

100 percent you know i it's just crazy

all

the different you know technology and

tools we have today that we didn't have

back in the day

and i ended up editing this on an ipad

pro

which was thinner than the paperwork i

pulled out

of that fire safe box i mean just

it really struck me when i realized that

well yeah you fast forward yourself from

304

in all these tapes and you have to have

all this where now

you know you can buy a 200 laptop and

edit a video right and i will say it was

one of the challenges i i faced was

actually transferring the many dv

tapes to digital how so

so the mini dv media medium can be

very finicky you record it it's there

and you go to play it back on a

camcorder

and it may not play back correctly you

may have

you know dropouts very poor footage

and it's it's very concerning then you

go and play it back on another player

and it may play back

fine that was very challenging i ended

up you know

a buddy of mine chris connolly you know

when he heard i was doing this he's

he's been a great friend of mine and uh

who's also in

in video and film production and very

supportive

and immediately offered me a this

professional deck

a pro camera to transfer this footage

neither one of those would play it back

properly i mean i was

i was sick i was nauseous well yeah

you've been storing this up for

years right and and you know you got

gold sitting there

and now all of a sudden you can't play

it i mean that's got to be extremely

frustrating

yeah so i borrowed a camcorder a

consumer camcorder for my older brother

and that didn't play it it would play

some tapes properly some play

some tapes not very frustrating and

very concerning especially like you said

you know

knowing the footage i have so and of

course at this time

the camcorder that you recorded it on is

long gone

correct and there's and you're probably

saying to yourself if i just had that

camcorder maybe it would transfer

perfectly right right that camcorder is

gone yeah

what i ended up doing was calling a

handful of

video transfer companies in the area

probably about five of them

and there was only one that i really

felt comfortable with and he

he really took the time to talk to me

about

what i was doing why i was concerned

basically invited me in i bring this you

know suitcase full of tapes into the

his studio and all this while in the

back of my head i'm just sick i'm like i

don't want to leave these tapes with

anybody i mean i trust this guy but

is this place going to burn down you

know

so i'm sitting there talking to him and

we discuss a few things i'm explaining

the issues i'm having

and before i leave i i say man do you

have

something we can just test it out on i'm

really curious if we can

get this stuff to play right so yeah let

me go grab this

camcorder i have it it does really well

with most tapes especially

treble tapes we popped that tape in and

played perfectly wow yeah i'm guessing

it wasn't

you know the same one you recorded no

absolutely not in fact it was a

small little handheld you know consumer

camera

i have a sense of relief but also i

still have that concern

with i don't want to leave these tapes

with anybody right you know

so yeah that's your only copy you know

you don't have backups of any of this

exactly right so popped in my head i

said hey man

let's make a deal instead of you

transferring all this

let me rent that camera camcorder from

you i'll bring it back when i'm done

give me the weekend

it's a win-win for everybody you you

know you don't have to transfer it

i have it all in my possession and we

made a deal and i took it home and

started transferring

so you transferred from that camcorder

to digital

yes straight into the macbook and

from there was able to you know put it

on a

hard drive and then send it over to my

ipad pro so

now you're going through all this old

video

that you transferred over and is it a

one for one deal i mean you're you're

watching this footage

as it transfers over you know maybe

you're going in the

kitchen and you know microwaving a pizza

or something like that

but you're watching all this as it's

going on were you watching me do this

a little bit because yeah i did go

microwave a pizza

yeah so so yes it was it it was

one to one i mean we're we're we're

transferring real time

but i i really enjoyed it you know you

know 20 plus hours

but i'm watching footage that i had

forgotten i had

or oh my god yeah i do remember that

aha moment that we talked about and

as you're doing this or are you not

having those moments

that and yes the aha moments but

now you're saying oh i definitely

have to get this done now i it like that

that fire that was in you before when

you were actually recording

kind of lights up a little bit more and

said

i remember how cool this was and now man

i

really have to do this absolutely that

was gas on the fire

i mean i was it was all i could think

about

you know i went through this footage

watching all this stuff it was

i mean it was awesome but i did have

some concerns

i i had some roadblocks one thing i

never did

was interview charlie that made me sick

to my stomach

you know it's one of those things where

i always put off

put off oh i'll do that later you know

maybe kind of nervous i don't i don't

know how to ask these questions to

charlie

you know that kind of thing and in

digging through these tapes i pull out

a crumpled up piece of paper with all

these questions

ready to ask charlie and i just looked

at that and

thought man i can't believe i didn't do

that so in my mind

as a as a filmmaker as an editor i'm

thinking

i have gaps in this story pretty huge

gaps

so i start you know brainstorming i'm

like i you know

i can use narrative i can maybe use

other interviews

you know create you know go interview

more people

to get more information and it really

weighed on me and

you know i was laying in bed one night

just scouring the internet

you know i was looking up anything i

could find you know i read

several obituaries on charlie this and

that

different types of searches and

finally something pops up in front of me

and it's an interview with charlie

voices of veterans a texas organization

has been collecting interviews with

veterans who live in texas

to compile all of this you know

all of this history to document it and i

sat there

it was a 30-minute interview and i

listened to this thing and

i thought man charlie just it was almost

like charlie just handed this to me said

yeah you screwed up little buddy right

but

here you go yeah i fixed it for you yeah

yeah

and i thought i mean i i can't tell you

how ecstatic i was to have that

interview

it closed so many gaps it it helped to

complete

complete the film for sure um in

addition to that they had referred to

another individual that

the voices of veterans had interviewed

who also served

who served with charlie and that's how

they that's how they learned about

charlie so

i went and listened to his interview and

i was able to

pull some gold off of that as well so

when you're going through all this and

and you find that interview you know

when you were traveling around with

charlie

you probably had those conversations you

know

when you're driving around and he's

telling you stuff did did you ever

regret the fact that

man i should have had the camera rolling

on some of this stuff

oh absolutely i mean sure we had candid

conversations

obviously when the camera run you know

wasn't rolling

i tried to keep it rolling as much as

possible but you know

i was poor back then yeah um or or the

batteries dead

and you're like hey i've got the battery

charging over here and then all of a

sudden he tells you the story and you're

like

why are you telling me this right now

you know the battery is over there on

the charger

you've got to wait until i have that red

light in front of you yeah

and of course that changes the dynamic

of it i mean

you put a camera in someone's face it's

typically a little bit different um i

try to be low-key

and you know have the camera rolling

when maybe they don't think i have it

rolling

you know so that's how you get the good

stuff but

yeah i mean you know so those times

yes in the back of my mind i'm thinking

man i wish i was rolling tape

but also more importantly i was having a

candid conversation with with charlie

you know and that was more important to

me than

saying hey man we need to set this up

and and record this interview

so right so now you got all this footage

together

you rented the camcorder you got it all

dumped down

now you've edited this movie together

and you finish it what entered your mind

right after you finished it

you kind of watched your so-called final

cut right

what was the first thing that you

thought when you watched that final cut

so the the first cut was was definitely

a rough cut

there were there were a lot of technical

aspects of it that i needed to fix

but i will never forget that moment it

was it was two o'clock in the morning

um you know i'm sitting in the living

room there and the rough cut is done

i'm sitting there thinking holy cow you

know it just kind of all

came down on me i i'm sitting here going

this is 20 years and i'm it's finished i

mean

not finished finished but you know the

rough cut is finished and i am

i can see the light at the end of the

tunnel it was it was emotional it was

were you by yourself when you watched

the final cut

i was i mean it was two in the morning

i'm guessing the old lady's asleep

and everything's saying jeremy when are

you coming to bed

oh you're working on the movie never

mind i'm

gonna go in and watch the real

housewives or whatever and fall asleep

speaking of thank you rachel she put up

with a lot especially during this time

because i i mean i'm telling you every

moment i had

i was you know 30 minutes here a couple

hours there drop the kids off at soccer

sit there in my truck and edit you know

i i i had to get it done

did you feel like you were under a time

constraint

like it you know after charlie's funeral

did you feel like

i only have like this little amount of

time even though you

didn't but did you kind of feel like i

got to get this out there

as soon as possible so so you felt that

kind of weight on your shoulders so to

speak that i gotta get this done

faster than you originally planned

absolutely

when i went to charlie's funeral i saw a

lot of friends

i can call them friends now that i

interviewed

17 18 19 years ago and

it was amazing seeing them again i also

got word that's

some of the some of the people i met

during the travels

had passed some of the individuals i

interviewed

had passed and so i i definitely had

a sense of urgency that

i want these people who

love and cherish charlie to be able to

see this film

so i did have that even so i'm like i

said i

i'm uh when i when i'm on one track mine

so when i'm ready to do something that

is all i

think about and that's it consumed me

right so nathan is part of you know

charlie's family

was there kind of any pressure you know

on jeremy to say

hey we want to see this no

no not at all but but you were

maybe impatient isn't the right word but

you were really wanting to see this

right well

it was one of those things that like

like i said before that

i had seen the clips but with not

knowing who

had really ever uh as far as the the

history of it

and like i didn't know until he had uh

told jeremy had let me know

that he had actually been doing like

ride-alongs you know and i never knew

that there was like

a film footage of of when uncle charlie

was

was out uh doing the dove hunt you know

right

and to do the interviews of my family

members and stuff like that i didn't

know

so it wasn't until really whenever he

came over to the house after the funeral

is whenever he showed me some of the

movie clips and then he he said hey

i'm moving on this and that's when i was

just like you know whenever you get it

done

you know i i hope to you know i look

forward to seeing it

but as far as for uh from annie and my's

aspect

you know there wasn't any as far as

pressure on them as far as that goes to

just

we're like i can't wait to see it yeah

very excited for him

and because we knew that he was going to

do it right you know we knew he was

going to do it right from the get-go

because

you know just just a giant thank you

because there's there's so many people

you know they're like man

is there a way as far as to to tell

about uncle charlie's

story because they hear about it and

they're like holy cow

yeah it's just absolutely amazing to

hear that the history of you know how

long

he was out there in the rice paddy

fields ryan

right and and of course like you say

your uncle charlie story

could you have picked a better person

than jeremy to tell the story

no it's awesome yeah wait why is that

it's just i mean for the right person

right time right right job

right guy for the job you know and he he

nailed it

he literally nailed it out of the park

he crushed it that's cool so that's very

cool

so jeremy you've submitted this film to

some film festivals tell us a little bit

about

submitting a documentary film to film

festival

so i'm definitely i was out of the game

for quite a bit on this you know back in

the day

when i started filming for this

it was hey you have to make a feature

film

and you know the internet was nothing

back then

like in its infancy yeah and you

probably have a stack of america online

discs

somewhere you know where it's like oh i

have 480 free hours of the internet

right yeah yeah which i don't need to

use yeah back then it was

oh i gotta make a feature and i'm gonna

have to mail

these you know physical copies to

these film festivals which you know

i i don't know that they were scarce but

definitely not

what they are today so digging back into

it i reached out

to an individual that had just gone

through all of this

brought cravy and he held me quite a bit

he

was able to direct me to the right

websites to visit

and basically a film freeway

is the gateway to all all film festivals

so

once everything was complete trailer

movie

movie poster synopsis press kit

all of that gets put in that website

so it's in film freeway correct it's

filmfreeway.com yeah i guess

i guess you could liken it to uh

linkedin for

you know for movie makers for actors

directors and such so

from there it's just a matter of

clicking

buttons hitting the apple pay and you're

in a festival

so pretty addicting and uh

and super easy to to enter in these

festivals

uh my goal was to start

with some monthly festivals for some

instant feedback super anxious

to get some feedback see how these film

festivals

receive the film i should start hearing

back

this month from about six or eight of

them

next month a handful following month a

couple

and then some of the bigger festivals

that are yearly i won't hear back from

until you know march of next year that

kind of thing so

now a lot of people really don't

understand

what a film festival is so you're

submitting this to a

film festival and then they show your

film

right so so what exactly is that big

draw

for a film festival i mean i know as a a

movie

liker right an aficionado so to speak

i like watching movies but i don't make

movies but you see that oh

winner at the cairns film festival or

winner at the sundance film festival

so what exactly is it that happens at

these film festivals when your

movie's shown it's definitely

there's a there's a wide range some of

these

are online only where they have

judges people in the industry

that are watching these films in private

critiquing

and deciding you know which ones

fit the awards and

[Music]

you know awards are uh presented at that

time

um of the of the actual festival so like

online ones they'll

they may show films online

for a short period of time uh in person

film festivals uh obviously you know

they're showing them at an

an event at a venue

and they'll sell tickets and you know

the public can buy tickets and go watch

these film festivals

everything so a regular guy like me i

can actually go to some of these film

festivals and see films

yeah absolutely so and i know covid last

year

um really changed yeah put a hamper on

it yeah it

changed how a lot of these operated

a lot of them did go online only but

yeah it's a it's a mix of online

and in person so and i'm just uh

like i said just waiting to get some

feedback

on the ones that i have entered yeah

that's cool

so uh before we go any farther

literally the elephant in the room right

now is

all of this stuff that we have sitting

on the table and we're gonna put some

pictures on

facebook and instagram but i'd kind of

like to

take a walk around the table so to speak

and nathan

you're probably gonna have to chime in a

little bit

about some of the stuff that we have

right here because

nathan has brought along a bunch of

stuff from

charlie's past and a lot of it's

really cool i mean we've got beers

sitting on the table right now

and quite honestly it's the most nervous

i've

ever been of having a beer this close to

some of this stuff because i am clumsy

and i i keep just very

gently trying to set my beer down so i

don't spill my beer on

any of this stuff but nathan if you can

kind of walk us through some of this

stuff and quite honestly

the one thing i want to start with is

this

helmet that is sitting in front of me

and we're going to take a picture and

put this on

facebook and everything but where did

you find

this helmet yep so well first of all

kind of

describe the helmet right so we you told

me earlier

it there's like a two-piece helmet and

this is kind of the interior of the

helmet so

kind of describe that for our visually

impaired listeners that you know

aren't going to look on facebook and

everything at these pictures

yes so so basically what we're looking

at here is it's a

uh there's a term that the military

person will normally give as far as to

the old

helmets they had back world war two

vietnam uh

time time frame but it's a basically

it's a two-piece

two-piece helmet so okay you have the

exterior and then this one what you're

actually looking at here is the

the the inner liner the interior okay

and what had kind of taken place was so

after

um he had basically he after he had

gotten off of the

helicopter and under fire and all that

kind of stuff

what he had actually done was he had

actually turned his helmet around

so it was actually what would normally

be on your left side

was actually moved to now to the right

that way because of the way that the

contour of the the helmet is with him

having it on

backwards and he was laying on the

ground and

that's he was basically in a fight with

what he called john wayne

so john wayne was was uncle charlie's

hero right

oh got you so that's how that kind of

came into place so how i come about

finding the helmet was uh november 13th

friday the 13th of last year my uncle

charlie

and brenda they had moved from texas

back up to ohio long story behind that

but

they're kind of in a rush as far as to

move well i was

uh going through the uh

out in the garage and then i mentioned

to

another gentleman sam hess that said hey

you mind if we

checked the house we went back into the

back room and lo and behold i find the

the duffel bag and i was like oh wow and

i was like what is this

so i go to open it and you know

instantly like whenever you open up

an especially military uh gear whenever

when you open up something

or like a room or something like that

that

you can tell the history you can smell

the the

you you smell it you see it yes all that

all

the sensory things just happened exactly

so

i no more than open that up and i was

like oh my god

this is the helmet this is it wow

and literally gave me goose bumps

because that was the first time i'd ever

seen it

not to mention the fact that you know he

had like that the uh though

his gas mask that he had okay you know

just different gear his

his uh flight cap that he had from

back whenever he was in the the core you

know

to like different pictures and as far as

in a ziploc baggie

so but this one in particular like

literally i was like

oh my gosh this is literally what

was was there you know that is

that is crazy another thing that's

laying right in front of me right now

is his purple heart and before we

started the podcast

you were talking a little bit about

there's two purple hearts you know for

for somebody that didn't serve in the

military

you just think oh you get a purple heart

or whatever

we open this up and you said there's two

purple hearts in here

right yes i've honestly i've never seen

one up this close before so it's

really cool to see but he's got two in

here

explain what that is yeah so basically

after he had been medevaced back to the

states

and he was up there at uh great lakes

naval hospital

there was a a general which is this is

the the photo here

so we have a photo uh it was taken on um

as far as from

when he came back but it's where the the

uh three-star general was presenting

alcatraz with

this uh right here so one is one of the

uh the per parts is what they

technically what they pin on you

and then the other is like the display

right yeah because

one's so much shinier than the other one

so you can tell yeah

one you kind of leave in the box and the

other one is the one that you wear

yes sir so uh so what i'm gonna do

i've got a envelope of

telegrams so there's a lot of probably

millennials that don't know what a

telegram is this is basically like

emails from way back in the day and you

have the actual

telegrams that came through so i'm gonna

hand this

envelope to you and i'd like for you to

read what's on these telegrams in in

your

voice here and i know i'm kind of

putting you on the spot

here but i mean it's just cool number

one to even see a telegram because a lot

of people

have honestly never even seen a telegram

but this is the way that we communicated

a long time ago yeah and these all have

to do with

you know your uncle charlie so i'd like

for you to

get the so let me back up

a little bit so we we do have the helmet

but

before you read the telegrams we do have

the helmet

in front of us and everything and there

is literally

a bullet hole in the side of this helmet

and i think we probably need to know a

little bit about the story of that

you know you said it was on the wrong

way or whatever

but i mean i'm sitting here looking at

it

it's really kind of surreal to look at

it but

kind of tell me a little bit more about

that sure so

so uh after he had gotten off the

helicopter

and they were there was you know

explosions

rp you know rpg all that gunfire

automatic uh

gunfire that's going off all over the

place the guy said that

you know even with talking with some of

his other uh members of the mic

three one um they all said it was

it was really bad and uncle charlie had

basically he was down on the ground

and you know with his helmet turn around

backwards and

he was in this gunfight with this guy he

named john wayne

so it just so happened it was a machine

gunner

that he was in this fight with well they

were going back and forth back and forth

volleys back and forth

and then it came to a point to where the

alcatraz looked up

and he seen him and it was just like the

flash

and come to find out this machine gunner

hit uncle charlie in the head

four times and as i had mentioned before

as far as with the

the two part uh helmet right

the one of those rounds and you can

actually see on the helmet

as far as the the dings from the other

ones as far as the kind of the impact

but one of those rounds was the the

ultimate

like shall we say the golden bb right

that was the one that made it made it

through and yeah

and i mean it's it's just crazy to look

at that

you know because you know it's sitting

here right in front of me and i'm like

you know there was there was a guy

wearing this that got

shot in the head and it's a foot

in front of me that's that's surreal

and i mean it really is it's hard to put

into words

it to be quite honest with you to have

something like that

sitting right in front of you amazing

that you brought that along with you

going into the telegrams yes sir i i

i'd kind of like for you to pull out of

the the envelope there

the those telegrams and kind of read

those along

you know with the date and everything

that

that came through i think it'd be kind

of cool for

for you as his nephew to kind of

read those i mean no offense jeremy but

i think it'd be

kind of cool for for the nephew to read

these telegrams now

one question before you read the

telegrams that telegrams went to his

parents right yes sir

okay all right just want to make sure

yes sir so so this

is something that happened years ago

this is how a you know serviceman

who is going through all this this is

how his parents

are notified old school telegrams

this is a western union telegram dated

25 april 1967

8 43 am from washington dc

24th nft mr and mrs john

w allman do not phone

route 1 van lee ohio this is to confirm

that your son

private first class charles l allman

usmc was injured

21 april 1967 in the vicinity of dinar

republic of vietnam he sustained a

gunshot wound to the head

from hostile rifle fire while on an

operation he has pre

uh present presently receiving treatment

at the station hospital da nang

his condition was critical and prognosis

guarded your anxiety is

realized and you are assured that he is

receiving the best of care

you will be kept informed of all

significant changes

in his condition his mailing address

remains the same

additional information received this

headquarters reveals that the condition

of your son

is improving he was changed from

critical

to serious he answers questions

however he is having difficulty with his

speech and he is paralyzed on his left

side

you are assured that he continues to

receive the best of care

his mailing address remains the same

wallace

m green jr general united states marine

corps commandant of the marine corps

can you imagine receiving a

telegram like that being a parent and as

you're

getting to the next one i mean

wow that's

it's heavy yeah i'm

that's crazy i mean it you get to the

point where

you're speechless so a report uh

was received um by this headquarters 28

april 1967

reveals that your son private first

class

charles l omen united states marine

corps

continues to receive treatment at the

u.s naval station

hospital domain he is definitely

improving he

talks freely now however his condition

remains serious

with his prognosis guarded his prognosis

for return of motor function to the left

side is poor

it has contemplated that he will be

medically air evacuated to the united

states

when his condition permits but the exact

evacuation date

and hospital destination are unknown at

this time

you will be furnished this information

when it is available

and you will be kept informed of all

significant changes

in this condition his mailing address

remains the same

wallace and green junior general united

states marine corps commandant of the

marine corps

it's almost hard to listen to i mean it

really is because

just thinking about being a parent

receiving that i don't even know how the

military does it now

you know if it's a email or something

like that

but especially something that big

they'll actually send somebody

yeah but back then back then yeah yeah

we also have you know some pictures of

charlie

you know floating around here and not

not to do with the movie poster which

jeremy

brought along and we'll get into those

in a second

i've got this picture in kind of ironic

and i guess you know it's another reason

why maybe we should

film some of these podcasts but this

whole time

i've had charlie staring at me i mean

you put this picture of charlie right

there in his

you know marine corps yeah what do they

call it the dress

blues or the dress blacks or whatever i

don't know i'm color blind it

could be black could be blue i don't

know he's staring at me like

you better not screw this up i don't

even know who you are max but you better

not screw it up because i'm going to

turn around and i'm going to come down

there and i'm going to open a can of

wood pass on you if you screw this

up right exactly yeah

if you ever got to the point to where

you was on his bad side

with his paralyzed hand he would

he would grab a hold of his middle

finger on his paralyzed hand

with his good hand and just kind of let

you know you're number one wiggle the

middle finger wiggle yeah for you yeah

give you the one finger solution

yeah hopefully hopefully he's not doing

that to me

right now no he saved those for ones

that he

really didn't like yeah yeah you aren't

good enough for my good

hand yeah wow that's beautiful

you know looking at these pictures being

surrounded by this stuff i mean

it it's absolutely amazing it it really

is so

uh nathan walked me through you know

outside of his

uh i guess that's his boot camp

graduation picture

and all that you do have some pictures

laying here in front of me and

you know we'll post them on facebook and

all that good stuff so

you know obviously you know we're audio

and

you can't see these right now but it you

can be able to see them here in a little

bit

we got some pictures here so what so

walk me through some of these pictures

that you have

right in front of me so the uh the surf

stress uniform that he has here

uh these are only two that i actually

found of uncle charlie

wearing his service dress uniforms so

you know

it was pretty much a shock whenever i

did find him then

the one that you see over there to the

left is where he was over there

in vietnam as and his job at the time he

was called a

cannon cocker so those guys the guys

that

my understanding is that those are the

ones that are loading the rounds

into the the guns and the howitzers so

that was him over there so so when i

look at this picture

i say well the marine corps back then

didn't have

hats that fit their soldiers

because i've seen you know the movie and

charlie was a

big guy and it's like well this is the

biggest hat that we have

so you got to figure out a way to make

it fit on your head

because you know charlie was a big guy

in that hat is almost not fitting his

head

yeah i mean he was he was a big guy had

a big melon

and that's kind of how he got the name

of water boo you know it's because he

was

big rough tough you know it and

of course this this kind of goes that

well this kind of goes back to the fact

that i'm a terrible journalist

right so i probably should have asked

this

at the very beginning of the podcast why

jeremy you're calling this water boo

and why everybody called him water boo

so it's basically because he's

big rough tough ornery nasty naughty

you know just you know he he's not

afraid to confront anything or anybody

yeah so uh water boo is short for water

buffalo

water buffalo over in vietnam they liken

charlie to the water buffalo he was mean

and honoring

and he might even have said he smelled

as bad as a

as a water buffalo or at least that's

what they said

so why is it when i look at him i think

of

some kind of famous actor like

who is it and you're laughing already

i'm looking at him and i'm saying he

looks like

a famous actor and i can't put my thumb

on who it is i know what you're saying

bottom line is

charlie was a badass and it shows

in all of these photos and i think

that's

what makes you feel that way i got you i

don't want to say

james dean but he kind of has that james

dean kind of feel

you know cigarette or cigar whatever it

is in his hand

he just looks like somebody that you

don't want to mess with

well charles p omen

and the p ain't for purdy i know

he he liked to put the yeah the p as the

initial for everybody's name and

it ain't for purdy ryan what a good

looking guy

in hospital just a beast

yeah you can see that in in the pictures

it

you know it's amazing it really is and

so before we got started you showed me

and jeremy and nathan you showed me a

picture of

probably not historically the first

selfie

but he did take a picture

of himself in the mirror with an

old-school camera and everything

and no kidding he's got a cigarette in

his hand

he's like you know i i just don't care

of course you know back then everybody

smoke so

it wasn't that big of a deal but he was

a hoss of a man

i think my leg is probably half the size

of his arm

specifically that photograph was i i

i hadn't seen that photograph until the

funeral

okay so so describe a little bit about

you know the photograph you just handed

me that on the back

says mother's day 1966

but let's be honest it's kind of a

creepy photograph to look at

we got charlie here in the back of his

heads caved in

when he came back from the great lakes

naval hospital

came back home there during those six

months this is a picture that had been

taken and you can see

how that the side of his head is caved

in yeah that's where

the skin was just basically protecting

his brain yeah

i mean it in looking at that you say

it's

a miracle he survived yeah i mean it

takes a tough dude to be able to survive

that

and and the next one is the big scar

you know when when they're fixing it up

like you said with the

fiberglass and everything got the big

scar

they're sewing it up i don't know the

dude but i'm looking at him saying

okay yeah i'll turn my head right here

so you can take a picture of this so you

can see it

it doesn't look like he's too happy

about the fact that somebody

wants to take this picture but you know

here it is

this is from the uh the dove hunt

the one arm duff hunt oh yeah yeah so

so we got a picture of that one arm dove

hunt

where i know he could out shoot me and

you jeremy

both of us i won't disagree yeah

that's it and this is another picture of

him shooting

is that like trap shooting or sir yeah

this is where he

was shooting handicap on this one

amazing man absolutely

amazing man in in jeremy by the way i

i'm

really glad that you're getting this out

you know that the whole story behind it

you know people need to hear

these stories there's so many unsung

heroes and

for you to collect all that and then

just

after so many years say this is

something people

need to know you would have rather

made this film and toured him around

with you

so he could speak at the premieres and

all this

and you know here he's passed

and now you're doing it post homelessly

or

or whatever first and foremost like i

explained

you know multiple times he was an

inspiration

to me obviously i'm not alone his story

you know it's it's not about the war

it's about him it's about

how he overcame the most

imaginable obstacles and still

live a you know a beautiful life you

know my goals

when starting this film was to

you know to introduce charlie to as many

people as possible

and share his inspirational story i also

think it was important that it

shows the effects of war

on a personal level all of us you know

nathan

included were too young to remember

what vietnam was all about and

we're going to lose those stories we're

going to lose them quick

fast and in a hurry as my dad always

says we got to keep those at the

forefront

and by you making this film you're

sharing some of these stories i mean my

father-in-law

fought in the vietnam war and i

guarantee you my father-in-law

would probably watch this film probably

by himself

and not tell anybody that he watched it

and not want to talk about it

because i've had many beers with my

father-in-law and he will

leak out a little bit about vietnam but

is very still guarded about what

happened

he was drafted and all that stuff you

know he didn't want to go

anything like that and every once in a

while

i get that little piece out of him and

then you

kind of see a different aspect about him

and there's so much about this story

that people need to know i mean it's

it's an amazing

amazing story with all that said

how can people see the film can can they

see the film

yet or do we have to wait until the film

festivals or

it you know most of us and of course if

the wolf was sitting here he'd say well

i'll find it on the pirate network and

you know i'll just download it and so

nobody makes any money off of it

because we joke about that all the time

but you know

that how can people find out more about

the film and watch the film and all that

good stuff

so currently as we discussed the film

is currently entered in several film

festivals

many of which require that it's

not premiered in their area right

because of that i've been very careful

about not releasing it

you know of course you release it online

it's released worldwide so technically

is not released yet

i invite your listeners to definitely

follow

waterboo.com i'm on facebook

instagram i'm keeping all the updates

on facebook and instagram as far as how

the festivals go

and once once the festival journey is

finished i'll have more information on

the actual release of the film

so do you plan on hearing the dfw

metroplex

of having kind of a release party so to

speak

you know where you rent out a theater

and you invite people and they can go

see it

have you thought about that in the back

of your mind absolutely

with most of these film festivals

private viewings

are okay so it's definitely been in

discussion

nothing has been set in stone you know

the best way to learn about that

again is uh you know getting online

waterboot.com

facebook instagram facebook and

instagram are both water boom movie

following those sites and

any updates as far as private viewings

or

showings like that would definitely be

promoted through those sites

very cool well jeremy nathan

i certainly appreciate y'all showing up

and

uh being with me on today's episode

it's it's been enlightening it's very

powerful

message so jeremy nathan thank you for

coming here and with all that said

thanks for tuning in to

this episode of the wolf in the shepherd

and we will catch you on the next one

thanks for listening to this episode of

the wolf and the shepherd podcast

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